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From the grammar book to your mouth | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Icaria909 Senior Member United States Joined 5592 days ago 201 posts - 346 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 17 of 58 14 February 2012 at 4:33am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I have had the same problem in the past, but over time I've come up with a few tricks
to help make grammar stick. 1. Read the entire grammar book from page 1 to the end. Skip all drills. I cannot emphasize this enough. A language's grammar is so interconnected. You first need to know the whole picture before you sit down to better learn the specifics. Approach this with the idea that you're not trying to learn the material but "becoming acquainted" to it. 2. Once you have read the grammar book once or twice, focus on a chapter and thoroughly study it. 3. When doing drills and exercises, we tend to get into a routine where we are no longer thinking about what we're doing because we are bored and know the pattern. Instead focus on repeating back the drill in real time without looking at the rules. Here's an example from learning the imperative mood from one of my grammar books: Modelo: Llegar a los ocho menos cuarto todos los días --> lleguen a las ocho menos cuarto todos los días. Read the first line and try to perform the drill without writing anything down. This will help train your mind to more quickly conjugate and form sentences when you're speaking. 4. Spend time reading intensively and extensively. It's one thing knowing the pattern, and another to understand all the contexts in which it's used. Reading intensively and extensively will provide untold number of examples that will continuously reinforce the grammar you've learned. 5. Finally, be prepared to continuously refer back to the grammar book for a long time. Make a habit of referring back to the book when you come across a construction that does not make sense or when you can't produce some sentence. If you've read the book already, it won't take you long to find the information you're looking for. It's a long process, but these tips have vastly improved my command of grammar and my ability to read and speak more intelligently. All the best, and good luck tackling the grammatical monster known as Russian :) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 18 of 58 14 February 2012 at 6:54am | IP Logged | ||||||||
As well as the right word, the correct pronunciation, other grammar points for example prepositions and so on. That happens in any foreign language. And is overcome by training. But for the first time one can speak slowly, with thinking before and during, with self correction sometimes. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 19 of 58 14 February 2012 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Since my Russian is extremely limited and rusty, I can't give any specific advice. (The one thing that still sticks in my head is "davai" for the French "allez-y" or the Spanish "adelante"). But let me add to all the good advice that Solfrid has received so far.
Solfrid is not a newbie to language learning and knows pretty much how to go about it. The problem we all face when it comes to actually speaking a language the way we would like to is fourfold. How to develop fluidity of speech (this is true meaning of fluency by the way)? How to acquire grammatical precision? How to choose the right words? How to pronounce all these things correctly? This is a tall order. And this is why we are all here. More specifically, here with Solfrid we are looking at going from the grammar rule in a book to that automatic response that comes out of our mouth spontaneously. Here is what works for me. First I identify the grammar theme that I want to master. I'm sorry that I can't use any Russian examples. Let's say that I want to really nail that imperfect subjunctive in Spanish. I look at the grammar books and do the exercises, but that's not enough. I'm a great fan of flashcards, so I write out around 20 to 30 examples of sample dialogs or phrases illustrating the usage of the grammar theme in question. This last exercise is harder and longer than you think because you want to get correct and usable examples. So, it's not as simple as just copying examples from the grammar book. I listen to a lot of recorded spoken language, especially dialogs, to get a sense of what is really used a lot and jot down real examples. For example, in Spanish I note that the imperfect subjunctive is used with "como si..." (as if). So I have at least a couple examples of that construction. It's important to have a few examples of each construction because you want to see the common structure. Taking a page from a great product that I bought here in Canada, I put a bunch of these cards on a large piece of paper to make a wall chart. Or I just stick some of the flash cards on the wall in my office or around the house and look at them daily. Of course, I read them aloud. People think I've lost my marbles because I'm always mumbling or talking to myself, but that's the price you have to pay. I hope that helps. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| LaughingChimp Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4700 days ago 346 posts - 594 votes Speaks: Czech* | Message 20 of 58 14 February 2012 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Who told you that? It doesn't work with languages like English, less so with such a complex language like Russian.
There is no way to do that. Possibly some autists could do that, but not a normal person. Don't worry, your aproach is correct, once you learn to say enough sentences correctly you will eventually start geting the grammar behind them.
I'm not sure if you mean separately or in a sentence. If you mean separately, even native speakers can't do that. If you ask a native speaker to say the word in all cases one after another, they will fail. Edited by LaughingChimp on 14 February 2012 at 2:13pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 21 of 58 14 February 2012 at 3:32pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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If you ask a native speaker to say the word in all cases one after another, they will
fail. Really? Why? The main thing is to gind a textbook with good explanations and where grammar is given in an appropriate order - balance between difficulty and utility. Exercises should be good as well. Plus listening, speaking. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 22 of 58 14 February 2012 at 8:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Anyway, it's entirely possible in a language which is very regular, for example Finnish. In fact, I think it's more common than being able to learn from memorizing sentences. We adults normally want to understand. Besides, Cristin understands the grammar. It's just more difficult to use it automatically. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 23 of 58 14 February 2012 at 9:09pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
But we learned that at school. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 24 of 58 14 February 2012 at 9:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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First, I don't think you will usually go straight from the grammar book to automatic use. Sometimes, maybe, but most times, there will be a period of adjustment where you get it right sometimes, often, most times and, hopefully, always.
I would suggest learning a sample sentence that makes sense to you and is usable in your life, and which contains the grammar in question. This will be your key, your flashcard, your model, call it what you want. You will be able to refer to it in times of need, which will be a lot more efficient and practical than referring to the book. Or you could also skip that step if you have a bit more time, and go right away to creating your own sentences while consulting the book. You can then either retain one/some of those sentences, or do this process so many times that the rule gains a certain degree of automaticity for you. Ultimately, it's the times you replicate the rule orally without any crutches (reading, etc.) that will most affect your ability to retain the process. Edited by Arekkusu on 14 February 2012 at 9:16pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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