Ending up disliking a TL and its culture (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Ending up disliking a TL and its culture
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anjathilina
Diglot
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United States
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Studies: Hindi

Message 65 of 84

02 March 2012 at 7:16pm | IP Logged

Wulfgar wrote:

Lucky Charms wrote:

Khatzumoto once said something like, "Japanese people aren't xenophobic. They're
xenocurious, with a tinge of
xenonervousness."

FYI - you are quoting someone who almost never leaves his room.

lol... I don't know anything about Khatzumoto, but I will say this:

...Ok, wait, let me preface this by saying, look, I love Japan. I have loved Japan for
nearly 15 years now (yeep!). I have dear friendships with particular Japanese people
and an affection for Japanese people as a whole. You meet good and bad in every
country. Many, many individual Japanese people are in no way xenophobic, I am certain.
But you can't take anecdotal good experiences (I've had many) and use them to discount
Japan's xenophobic tendencies, which can be seen at a level of policy. Just look at
immigration.

And I don't know the ethnicity of anyone on this board, but it's worth noting that
one's experience in Japan and impression of how they deal with "foreigners" can be
greatly dependent on one's own ethnicity and nationality.

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Lucky Charms
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Message 66 of 84

03 March 2012 at 6:02am | IP Logged

Wulfgar wrote:

Lucky Charms wrote:

Khatzumoto once said something like, "Japanese people aren't xenophobic. They're
xenocurious, with a tinge of
xenonervousness."

FYI - you are quoting someone who almost never leaves his room.

After a few years of reading his blog (and even his daily schedule which he posted a
few months back), I don't get that impression. Has he said this before, or do you
assume this is the case because he has some geeky tendencies, or because he's really
good at Japanese? In any case, I quoted him because he put into words what I had
already observed myself.

anjathilina wrote:

And I don't know the ethnicity of anyone on this board, but it's
worth noting that one's experience in Japan and impression of how they deal with
"foreigners" can be greatly dependent on one's own ethnicity and nationality.

Yes, I think you're right. Further up this thread I mentioned that I would be
conducting an informal facebook survey, and the results were clearly divided along
these lines (although I'm aware that such a small sample size doesn't prove anything;
I'm just summarizing for those who are interested). Both white Americans and both
Japanese-Americans who responded (as well as I, who am a Persian/white happa) made
comments to the effect that Japan is no more racist/xenophobic than the U.S., and all 3
Chinese-Americans who responded felt that Japan is xenophobic. All respondents have
lived in Japan for two years or more. I found out through our conversations that racist
attitudes against ethnic Chinese and Koreans are more widespread than I had thought.

crafedog wrote:

It's not like he started a
topic called "The many reasons I hate Japanese culture and its people are...". That
would deserve contempt. He was just asking if a dislike of a culture has put you off a
language you know/knew/previously had enjoyed.

That may not have been the title, but it was the gist of his post. I think it's a
perfectly valid and interesting topic but as Iversen said, the contempt wasn't
necessary; on the other hand, your post about Korea managed to convey your frustration
with the culture without such disparaging remarks about the people. I'm sorry if my
irritation with his post caused the thread to go off-topic.

Edited by Lucky Charms on 03 March 2012 at 6:35am
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Wulfgar
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Message 67 of 84

03 March 2012 at 10:34am | IP Logged

Lucky Charms wrote:

Has he said this before, or do you assume this is the case because he has some geeky
tendencies, or because he's really good at Japanese?

I think he refers to it somewhere in his blog. But this is
per some of his former Japanese friends I spoke with in Japan.
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benzionisrael
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Speaks: English*, Japanese, Spanish^B2

Message 68 of 84

05 March 2012 at 6:17pm | IP Logged

palfrey wrote:

I don't have firsthand experience of Japanese society. But I have read some accounts, and they appear to support Kanewai's statement, at least up to the recent past.

One book in particular is worth noting (it is still in print): The Japanese Today: Change and Continuity, 2nd ed. by Edwin O. Reischauer and Marius B. Jansen

Reischauer (1910-1990) was born and raised in Japan, speaking both Japanese and English (lucky him!), and went on to become a scholar of Japanese studies at Harvard. He also served as U.S. ambassador to Japan from 1961 to 1966. He seems to have been highly regarded by the Japanese, who even sent a television crew to cover his farewell speech at Harvard in 1981. As well, after his first wife died, his second wife was a Japanese woman (who, it turned out, had had a secret crush on him back in Tokyo when they were both high school students).

So this was not someone who was a Japan-phobe, or who could not speak the language, or who suffered from culture shock. Indeed, the main criticism in some of the Amazon reviews is that he has painted too rosy a picture of Japanese society.

Yet even he felt compelled to mention the difficulty faced by foreigners in trying to fit into Japanese society. In his book, after discussing some of the problems that non-Japanese Asians have had, he continues (pp. 399-400):

Quote:

...If it is extremely difficult for other East Asians living in Japan to cross over the imaginary "racial line" and actual "culture line" into full membership in Japanese society, it is all but impossible for a Westerner. Occidentals are treated with amazing kindness and hospitality, though rarely invited to a Japanese home simply because of the embarrassing lack of space. Only in a few specialized situations are Westerners subjected to unpleasant discrimination, as, for example, when they are excluded from certain bars because of fear of their rowdiness or the uneasiness they would cause other patrons. Usually the treatment they receive is so generous as to make them seriously embarrassed when it comes to reciprocating.

But such kind treatment is based on the assumption that they will remain merely visitors or at least outsiders. It is very difficult for a Westerner to be accepted as truly one of the group. As an external adornment he or she may be lionized, but no one wants him as a full member. A Westerner who becomes very well informed about Japan may even be resented. To the extent that he becomes accustomed to Japanese habits of thought and ways of life he may be considered a hen na gaijin, a "foreigner with a screw loose," who makes the Japanese feel ill at ease. True fluency in Japanese may raise feelings bordering on hostility, though a few outrageously mispronounced phrases will produce enthusiastic praise. The Japanese feel that foreigners should never forget that they are foreigners.

The contrast with the United States is marked. Americans commonly assume that any foreigner in their midst is eager to become an American and probably will in time. Japanese regard foreigners as irrevocably on the other side of the great dividing line between "us" and "them." I remember an official cultural conference between Japanese and Americans that illustrated the difference in attitudes. On one side of the table sat the "Americans," including Americans working in Japan, Americans of Japanese descent, and even one Japanese citizen who taught permanently in the United States. On the other side sat only Japanese permanently resident in Japan.

Many Americans living in Japan are infuriated by their ultimate rejection and irritated by the unconsciously perjorative overtones of words used for foreigners. In my childhood clearly insulting words, such as ijin, "strange people," or keto, "hairy barbarian," were sometimes heard, but neutral terms won out, such as Seiyojin, "Westerner," for all Caucasians and the official word gaikokujin for all foreigners. Gaikokujin still remains in official use but has been shortened for informal use to gaijin, "outsiders." This term emphasizes the exclusiveness of Japanese attitudes and has picked up perjorative overtones that many Westerners resent. Interestingly, it is not used for Koreans, Chinese, and some of Japan's other near neighbors, who are differentiated by their national origins. But such more specific names usually carry even more derogatory overtones than gaijin.

Maybe attitudes are finally starting to change in Japan. And that would be a good thing, of course. But based on what Reischauer has written, I believe there may be some truth in what benzionisrael has written in his original post. Dismissing his experiences with a simple "the problem lies with you" does not seem entirely fair.

Thanks for the informative post my friend. I appreciate the fact that you even included several paragraphs from a sociological source. Like you said, some people like to dismiss people's negative percepcions of certain host countries and languages as mere nonsense, but if they concord with intellectual sources, one can argue that the percepcions held by those individuals are valid up to a certain point.

I personally can relate to what the author writes. I too get irritated by their exclusivist attitude and the way they always treat you with visitor status, no matter how deeply you become immersed in the culture and national customs.

I don't like the way many Japanese people assume that westerners will never be able to speak Japanese fluently and speak to us as if we were children just because we are not of east asian origen, and exaggerate that their language if overwhelmingly difficult dispite it being grammatically more simple than many indoeuropean languages.

I don't like the way some but not all Japanese people always want us to fit a certain mold, in other words an ignorant gaijin who cannot grasp Japanese culture and customs. Like the authors mentions, I have found that some Japanese people(albeit a minority, but still a significant minority) suddenly become even more distant when they encounter a westerner proficient in the Japanese language and well acquainted with Japanese culture and society. These people range from mildly shocked and intimidated all the way through to hostile and unwelcoming, with the former being the majority of cases and the latter thankfully being a small minority. It seems that some Japanese people dislike and even resent westerners fully proficient in the language. I can only imagine that the root of this ill-feeling towards us is envy as many Japanese people, especially those who profess themselves to be intellectuals, suffer from an inferiority complex of not being able to speak English fluently. Anyway, whatever the reason, it always is a pain to encounter such type of people.

I don't like some people's complete ignorance and inability to add 2 and 2 and get 4. For example, some people ask shocked, why on earth would a westerner learn to speak Japanese? Apparantly living in Japan and having a job in a japanese company, or in some cases having a Japanese wife and family are answers too inconceivable for many.

I don't like the way many Japanese youngsters hold some kind of fear of interacting with foreigners. That only makes it harder to make friends here. In most other cultures such fear is not present and intergration and socialization is much easier. Some people point to the lack of English ability as the cause, in other words they avoid interacting with foreigners in Japan because they have little confidence in their English proficiency and fear embarassment, but this trait vexes me because first of all it goes back to the first point, ie discriminatory assumptions that foreigners will never be able to speak Japanese, and secondly, because it demonstrates that many are cowardly and need to man-up a little (subjective opinion, but I believe most would agree). At least in other cultures even people without foreign language ability don't fear foreigners and make an effort to interact dispite the language barriers.

I don't like the way that many Japanese people claim to be so open-minded and tolerant of others, often in a flaunting manner, yet are incapable of understanding the feelings and circumstances of a foreigner in Japan.

Just as the author used the word lionized, I don't like the way many Japanese people fetishize occidental culture. In most cases their attitude towards western culture is really pathetic. One example would be the extreme over-use of western loanwords in place of perfectly normal native words, dispite the fact that many native options already exist. It is the case that they go out of their way to alienate native words just to accomodate western loanwords. And what is worst of all is that they believe that this is attributed to their noble "open-mindedness", yet consider people who prefer to use pre-established kango variants as odd or even irrational purists (Yes, I have been labelled as these when debating in Japanese language internet forums).

I could go on but I won't. Just for the moderators, I haven't written this for the purpose of discriminating or anything like that, I simple desire to express my feelings on the subject. I would like my freedom of opinion to be respected here if that is OK. If anyone has a differing opinion, your contributions are welcomed.

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cathrynm
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Message 69 of 84

05 March 2012 at 6:43pm | IP Logged

I think the fear goes both way sometimes. The situation of being half-Japanese is that often you have parents who are deathly afraid that you'll get teased. So you spend your life hidden from Japanese people. This was me, and I didn't understand why I was so fearful of Japanese people until I talked to other half-Japanese with similar experiences. I think I have recovered from this somewhat.

To be honest, I don't connect so much with Japanese guys, but who I find more commonality is with other half-Japanese people who live in Japan. I don't try to fight stereotypes, I think better for language exchange purposes to feed the stereotypes, and if I talk about American to mention guns and hamburgers even though I don't own guns and I rarely eat hamburgers.
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atama warui
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Message 70 of 84

05 March 2012 at 6:46pm | IP Logged

benzionisrael,

your reply is full of generalizations. while you from time to time add "some" / "a minority" and such to make it sound less harsh, the general tone is offending me.

I've had different experiences with Japanese people. That doesn't matter though, everyone has to have their own.
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benzionisrael
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Message 71 of 84

05 March 2012 at 6:55pm | IP Logged

kanewai wrote:

I read the first post, and I wonder if the OP wasn't hoping to be Japanese, and
some of the anger is from not being allowed to? It takes a lot of work to become
fluent, and I can see that it would be frustrating if you put in all that work and yet
were still kept on the outside looking in.

As you say my friend, it can be really frustrating when one is forced to remain outside the circle despite having invested a lot of time and intense amounts of effort into the studying of the language.

Being treated as an outsider rarely happens to me here in Spain. It seems that in most Asian nations society tends to have a more exclusivist approach regarding foreigners.

Here in western Europe its seems that most people can intergrate reasonally well. Even different races like Asians can intergrate, and those who can't normally can't because they don't want to.

But in Japan for example no matter how much you try it is very hard to intergrate oneself fully into society. That can be a valid cause for frustration for a westerner living in Japan, China or Korea.
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benzionisrael
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Message 72 of 84

05 March 2012 at 7:04pm | IP Logged

atama warui wrote:

Exactly. Everyone has the right to their own opinion. I am sorry if you are offended, I sincerely am because I don't want to cause trouble for anyone, but at the same time I think some people get offended too easy in the hyper-politically correct world of today.

You mention the "generalizations" in my post, but life is full of generalization. We all do it because it is necessary in order to form a workable frame of comprension regarding our immediate environment.

Certain people seem to think that generalizations are inherently bad, and then go on to accuse those who generalize as ignorant and uncultured, however, it is reasonable to conclude that there is a difference between justified and injustified generalizations.

I feel that when one as lived in a particular setting for some time, it is no longer a generalization based on ignorance, but rather a justified generalization based on ones valid knowledge of ones surroundings.

Though the attitudes I describe in my post are of a minority, that minority is evidently larger in Japan than the corresponding minority in many other countries, therefore giving my stated opinions at least some objectivity.

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