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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7207 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 9 of 36 30 June 2006 at 2:51am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I've found schedules helpful for as long as I've stuck to them, which is usually just a few weeks. Occassionally I come up with a schedule that I can stick to for months and that is when I feel I make real progress. As for purpose, it helps me if I can do language learning in the context of something I want to do anyways. For instance, if there is a book I think I should be studying (in my native language) I study it in my target language. If I'm feeling like a news buff, I try to get that through my target language. If I can socialize with someone and discuss things in my target language that I'd like to talk about in any language, I'm in nirvana. This way, I don't feel a pull between two disparate goals. One goal can be satisfied through the other. Edited by luke on 30 June 2006 at 2:55am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Eric Senior Member Australia Joined 7230 days ago 102 posts - 105 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 10 of 36 30 June 2006 at 10:58pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Dear all,
Sincere thanks for all your replies, I value each and every one equally and thankyou for assisting me in this matter, hopefully this topic will help others aswell who may feel as I do. I have chosen to respond to each of you within one post as I feel François would probably prefer it that way, which is understandable. Malcolm, I would ideally like to converse with someone in my target language but I prefer if that person is fluent and can teach me why certain things are the way they are. This leads to personal tuition though and costs more than I can afford. Group chat isn't really my thing unless I'm forced to (for that 'class participation mark' to haul me over the pass line for example) jpxt2, Yes I want the end result without the study. I know, I know, everyone wants this and it's the reason that someone studying a second language as an adult is rare when compared to the vast majority of people who never study another language unless absolutely forced to. (emmigrate etc) The problem I have is thus: I want to know the Target Language like my mother tongue. I want to love the Target Language like my mother tongue. But when I study my Target Language at best I feel amused, but that eventually becomes annoying when I reach a certain level where I'm sick of it. I then feel "how can you love this language when you can't spend much time with it?", as if fluency was marriage, how can I marry and live with this language when I can only tolerate it for small amount of time every other day? I've done the whole 'foreign film'/DVD in Target Language audio, but whenever I find myself not understanding parts of it I feel like the effort is fruitless. omicron, I have a sickness. I'm addicted to books, both language and literature. It's so bad that if I walk into a book store 9 times out of 10 I'll come out with a book. Yesterday there was a 35% sale at a local store on travel literature and so I came out with 3 phrase books: German, Mandarin, & Indonesian. This was after I bought a Dutch phrase book at another store, and the day before bought a dutch grammar book, a Korean phrasebook, and Albert Camus' "The Outsider". (I own the french copy 'l'étranger' but I hate the constant book-to-dictionary dance that takes place every 3 words) I have Penguin's dual stories in French and Spanish but sadly I tire of it quickly and the process doesn't excite me. TDC, I think I'll have to do something like this religiously as at the moment I only do these every other day. Once again it's the motivation though, I hate the process of learning but the love the knowledge ofthe language. As for learning something else I originally wanted to learn German and Chinese but couldn't go the autodidactic route. (as you can probably tell) When I arrived at Uni I was set to study Japanese but before classes started I chose Spanish. Why? Because I hoped in learning a romance language I wouldn't 'lighten up' a bit as I hold myself to high standards which I can't meet. (infinite desire, finite motivation = failure) After a year of Spanish I felt the department was run bad (it was) and so this year I started French, which is only run marginally better. I'm not going to abandon any languages that I have "officially" started (ie- Uni) but I kind of feel as though Uni is the only way I'll ever learn a language with my poor motivation, and I can't stay at Uni forever, I'm already approaching 30. (I'm not sure if this is a factor, My French teacher said after 27 your brain turns to mush - maybe she's right) tdmg, Regarding your points, With the 'structure' scenario, I'd say this isn't me. When I major in Spanish, I want to read, speak, and think in the language fluently, anything less is a complete failure, even if I can read a Spanish newspaper with a 70% accuracy and hold down a conversation with common folk, I will always think of the time and especially the thousands in debt that this major has cost, I must be fluent. I therefore feel I fit into the second category, but unfortunately also the third which is my major problem. I love what autodidacticism sells "learn what you want when you want" but I feel that I perhaps I have a learning disability and therefore I reach a wall eventually if I cannot understand something and/or simply lose the will to do it. (like a stubborn mule) I find I work best if I have a good rappor with a tutor and she encourages me, then I feel like I have to learn almost out of 'politeness' as if I take someone's time and help that is a debt I owe and must pay by demonstrating that their time has not gone to waste. Naturally, debts to self and the classroom scenario cancel any obligatory learning beliefs. But, it's far too costly to recieve private tuition in my Target Languages, so this is really a problem I must tackle. I toy with the idea that if I can aquire that elusive second language then this motivational problem will be decimated. I think it is for this reason that Dutch and Indonesian seem appealing to me currently where they weren't before. Both have the notion that they are somewhat 'easy' (a reputation Spanish has though I disagree with) and I'm tempted to learn one or the other just to 'get the first one over and done with'. Then again I'm torn between studying a new language when I could be learning just one more word in French/Spanish instead. I'm considering what approach is the best - full dedication to French/Spanish or to just give my desire full licence to pick up whatever it chooses, whenever it chooses to, and to learn in fragments. The latter sounds appealling, but I fluency would only be achieved at a snails pace - if ever. luke, You said, "For instance, if there is a book I think I should be studying (in my native language) I study it in my target language" Yes, I've tried this but can only do it via 'dual-language' format as I keep reaching for the dictionary which gets very monotonous. Finally to all, Despite my ability to speak (albeit quite badly by my standards) in Spanish, I'm plagued by the thought that somehow I'll be able to attain fluency due to age and/or mental capabilites. I know age is probably not a factor as Ardaschir's mother learn't Spanish late in life if I recall correctly, but I do wonder whether the finite space in my memory can accommodate a vocabulary and grammar of a second language let alone many. Hmm. -Eric Edited by Eric on 30 June 2006 at 11:02pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Malcolm Triglot Retired Moderator Senior Member Korea, South Joined 7317 days ago 500 posts - 515 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English*, Spanish, Korean Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Latin | Message 11 of 36 01 July 2006 at 1:31am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I'd just like to make sure you knew what I meant by a language exchange. It is when you find a native speaker of your target language who is also learning your native language. So, for example, you would find a Mexican guy living in your city who wants to improve his English and you would practise with him on a regular basis. I apologize if you already knew this, but from your reply, I got the feeling that you thought I was suggesting some sort of conversation group with non-native speakers. Actually, a language exchange is as close as you can get to a private tutor without paying any money. The disadvantages are 1.) your partner, while a native speaker, will not be able to explain grammar as well as a real teacher, and 2.) you will have to spend half the time "teaching" English, but this is the easy part in my opinion. I did a Spanish language exchange with a Peruvian guy for almost two years because I didn't have the money for a private tutor or a trip to a Spanish speaking country (and if I did have the money, I wouldn't have spent it on these things anyway). We usually met on Saturdays, and each time I remember feeling very motivated to get better before our next session. I'd cram in the tenses and vocabulary, but it was fun because the whole time I'd be imagining how I planned to use these words or sentence structures on Saturday. During the second year, I started to lose some motivation and I rarely studied Spanish (I was probably already at the "Basic Fluency" level anyway by this time), but I still improved because I was able to practise every week. This is just what worked for me at that time, so I thought I'd share it. There are many ways to learn languages - some more motivating than others - but you have to find what works for you, and preferably something that will provide a long term and consistent source of motivation rather than a short term one. Good luck. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6945 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 12 of 36 01 July 2006 at 2:27am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Well, you know you can't just wake up one day fluent in a new language, so if that's truly the only acceptable course of "study", you may as well drop the whole idea now and seek personal growth and fun elsewhere. That was the bad news. Now for the good news. The fact that you are not willing to keep doing boring things just because someone said they were "good for you" means you have a chance to find something that works. First, however, a simple question. You say you want to know your target language as well as your own. Why? And do you really want it? You say you want to love the target language as your own. Do you actually love your own language, or do you just happen to use it as a crucial instrument for living, including having fun, without giving it another thought? Basically, suppose you were suddenly magically fluent in your target language. How would it make your life any different from the way it is now? What do you imagine yourself doing in that language that would be meaningful to you that you can't do now? The reason I think these questions are relevant is because, unless your brain happens to be wired in such a way that you get high just from the mere act of doing more of the same, but in a foreign language (which a number of people do), you need to decide if you need the target language for anything that's meaningful to you. Once you identify what it is you'd really like to do with it when you are fluent, you can structure your activities around your interest(s) as soon as it becomes feasible. Now, there is one bit of attitude that does need adjusting, the one that says "whenever I find myself not understanding parts of it I feel like the effort is fruitless". No, it's not fruitless - understanding comes bit by bit, but it does come, and you know it. The question is, would you care to see that same movie if you already knew the language? Would you care to see it if it were in English? If not, it wouldn't be worth seeing if they spoke Martian. And if there isn't a movie worth seeing in the target language, it simply means you have to get your kicks with that language elsewhere, and if there is nothing worthwhile elsewhere, you need a different target language, and if it's the same with all the other languages, well, you get the idea ... English is actually not that easy to beat right now - the rest of the languages are pretty much "niche" languages at this juncture in history, so you need to find the "niche" that will meaningfully enhance your life over being monolingual. Edited by frenkeld on 04 July 2006 at 12:03am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| omicron Senior Member United States Joined 7123 days ago 125 posts - 132 votes Speaks: English* | Message 13 of 36 02 July 2006 at 3:27am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I had that very sickness. I cured it by leaving my money at home before going to the store. That way I still got the fun of book shopping, but ended up buying fewer books.
This is why I recommended grabbing a mystery, tossing out the dictionary and reading for story. Better yet, grab a story you already know well and read it in French or Spanish I started reading novels in French pretty early (largely by accident - I just got in the mood to reread some books, and I couldn't find them in English), while I was finishing up with a very lazy approach to Assimil French with Ease. I read a few Heinlein books I knew well, the Lord of the Rings (which was objectively 'harder', but actually easier since I knew the story so well), then some easy fiction I didn't know, The Bourne Identity and The Bourne Supremecy. I think had I started with the last two I wouldn't have gotten nearly as far. The reason I didn't consult a dictionary was that I didn't want to lug it around with me. My strategy was pretty simple - if I couldn't figure out a passage, I'd move on to the next. That was years ago, before I even seriously considered trying to become 'fluent in French' (whatever that means), which is my goal now. Have you tried Waiting for Godot? That's what I'm reading now. Anyway, that's a lazy man's way to a pretty good knowledge of written French. You are probably more ambitious. Cherry picking some of your statements :
Sounds like you're a perfectionist. That may be a partial cause of your motivation problem. I think you may need to figure out how to be comfortable with the notion of 'good enough for now'. Doing 1000 small things 'good enough for now' will probably get you further faster than demanding absolute perfection of yourself in an arbitrary time frame. Check out this link
I respectfully suggest you be suspicious of any advice this person gives you. Of course, I'm 45, so maybe my brain is mush and my vaste improvement in French over the last year is just an illusion. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Farley Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 7094 days ago 681 posts - 739 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, GermanB1, French Studies: Spanish | Message 14 of 36 02 July 2006 at 8:03am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Just to reiterate what has already been said above, here is my two cents worth: It sounds like an overuse of dictionaries and bilingual texts is part of the problem! Until you have acquired a base vocabulary of about 4000-5000 words, diving into novels straight away can be an exercise in futility. It is sort of like trying to get credit when you don’t have any. You have to systemically study this base vocabulary, and the grammar rules to go with it, before reading in the target language really becomes fun. The good news is that you can choose your poison, so to speak. A number of members on the forum have made use of the Cortina, or Cassell’s grammar guides. Try reading one of those cover to cover several times and see what it does to your reading comprehension. Between Assimil, Annenberg and a host of audio magazines, French and Spanish don’t have to be that painful to learn. Also don’t forget programs like the 200-Words-a-Day or the Michel Thomas course. And most important, measure success in how much you learn and not in how much you don’t know.
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| patuco Diglot Moderator Gibraltar Joined 7017 days ago 3795 posts - 4268 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Personal Language Map | Message 15 of 36 02 July 2006 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Good positive thinking! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| TDC Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 6923 days ago 261 posts - 291 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin, French Studies: Esperanto, Ukrainian, German, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Persian | Message 16 of 36 02 July 2006 at 2:28pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
tdmg, I don't really agree with this. Because the goal is to achieve something. I stumbled about doing this or that, and never really got anywhere. That's when I figured out if you want something, you have to go for it. My dream was/is to travel around the world and go to lots of places. However, I wasn't accomplishing this at all. I was sitting around the house, eating chips, watching TV, and wishing I was in some foreign country. It wasn't until I realized that saying I wanted to travel and actually traveling were completely different things that I figured out what I had to do. My realization was this: in order to travel around the world, you actually have to travel around the world. As simply as that may sound, I think a lot of people go through life wishing/wanting to do this or that, but not taking any action to achieve it. To achieve something, you actually have to do something. Most people regardless of whether they like their routines or not, just can't figure out how to get out of the rut. Action is the only way to achieve anything. Visualization, I think, is the key. In order to attain anything, you need a firm idea of what it is that you want to obtain, and a definite idea of how to do so. Otherwise, as they say, wish in one hand... As to languages, studying a little bit over a long period of time, is better than a lot over a short period of time. You could study one hour a day a week or 10 minutes a day (and take Sunday off if you're inclined) but which way do you think you'd learn more? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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