At what level do you say you speak (2) ? (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

At what level do you say you speak (2) ?
Tags: CEFR Language Levels \| Speaking
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Language Learning Forum : General discussion

Poll Question: At what level do you say you speak (2) ?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
B1	21	[17.50%]
B1+	13	[10.83%]
B2-	10	[8.33%]
B2	50	[41.67%]
B2+	26	[21.67%]
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118 messages over 15 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 5 ... 14 15 Next >>

zerrubabbel
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4601 days ago
232 posts - 287 votes

Speaks: English*
Studies: Japanese, Mandarin

Message 33 of 118

30 March 2013 at 1:36am | IP Logged

patrickwilken wrote:

Arekkusu wrote:

If you are getting 80% of a message, it means that 20% of sentences have something you
don't get, leading to a factual wordcount percentage of much higher than 80%.

Getting 80% sounds like a lot, but if you actually look at how much you miss you'll find that you can barely
understand anything. Even at 95% you are still missing a lot, because the words you tend to miss are the most
important for the sentence.

Remember the old adage: with just the word "The" you understand 40% of the Bible.

I think that a language is somewhat like buying things in a store tho... for instance, if you buy some rubbing alcohol,
it might say [contents by weight, not volume]. So assuming he's talking about by volume, making all words equal,
then 80% would be very good, but if you consider how often words are used, for instance, particles, common nouns
and verbs, introductions and pleasantries, then 80% by weight might not be considered as good...
3 persons have voted this message useful

Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6598 days ago
9753 posts - 15779 votes

4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, Finnish^C1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

Message 34 of 118

30 March 2013 at 1:47am | IP Logged

a thread about getting the gist
1 person has voted this message useful

casamata
Senior Member
Joined 4263 days ago
237 posts - 377 votes

Studies: Portuguese

Message 35 of 118

30 March 2013 at 2:20am | IP Logged

Serpent wrote:

a thread about getting the gist

Well, I guess it depends how satisfied the person is with their knowledge. A friend I know had two years of basic High School Spanish and is apparently "fluent." And then I have a French speaking native friend that stated that he felt fully "fluent" after 10 years in the US, speaking and using English all the time.

It's very unreasonable to expect anybody except for the handful of exceptions in the world to understand a native-speed conversation full of slang, double meanings, incomplete sentences, and jokes amongst several natives speaking amongst themselves.

It is one thing to understand tourist level knowledge of language A, another to understand a formal news broadcast, and a very different thing understanding a show at the comedy club. Somebody that understands the "gist" may have a very different definition of that than others.

"What is getting the "gist" mean for you? In the following sentence:

"George met his friend at the bookstore and they perused the comics section before getting a bite to eat at the local restaurant."

Is the gist: 1. "George met friend and they did something."
2. "George met friend at bookstore, they bought something, ate somewhere."
3. Hearing every single word but not knowing a few words like "comics" or "bite to eat"?
4. Understanding the literal definition (but not subtle connotations) of all the words as well as the main message?

I'm not critiquing you, just curious what people think "gist" means. I think it is knowing the main idea but missing some important facts. If you are a translator, though many of us aren't, you should know the details! "
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Sterogyl
Diglot
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 4368 days ago
152 posts - 263 votes

Studies: German*, French, English^C2
Studies: Japanese, Norwegian

Message 36 of 118

30 March 2013 at 8:17am | IP Logged

I agree with casamata.

Alexander Arguelles once said that from 98% comprehension extensive reading is possible. This means, you can more or less figure out the meaning of unknown words from the context, or at least they will not dramatically impair your reading. This should also apply to listening comprehension. 80% is definitely not enough to understand (most words are common words like "be", "have" etc. anyway).

1 person has voted this message useful

Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6598 days ago
9753 posts - 15779 votes

Message 37 of 118

30 March 2013 at 9:03am | IP Logged

He actually said 80%, meaning that in five words, there's one that is unknown to you.
1 person has voted this message useful

Sterogyl
Diglot
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 4368 days ago
152 posts - 263 votes

Studies: German*, French, English^C2
Studies: Japanese, Norwegian

Message 38 of 118

30 March 2013 at 9:05am | IP Logged

Serpent wrote:

He actually said 80%, meaning that in five words, there's one that is unknown to you.

Source?
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luke
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 7206 days ago
3133 posts - 4351 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Esperanto, French

Message 39 of 118

30 March 2013 at 9:12am | IP Logged

patrickwilken wrote:

Remember the old adage: with just the word "The" you understand 40% of the Bible.

But based on that 40%, you can extrapolate most of the rest.
3 persons have voted this message useful

emk
Diglot
Moderator
United States
Joined 5533 days ago
2615 posts - 8806 votes

Speaks: English*, French^B2
Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian
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Message 40 of 118

30 March 2013 at 11:02am | IP Logged

Arekkusu wrote:

At B1, a person may say that you don't speak the language very well, but I can't see anyone denying that you speak it.

I agree. If we look at the old CEFRL self assessment checklist from the Council of Europe, it's clear that B1 includes very real speaking ability:

Quote:

I can follow clearly articulated speech directed at me in everyday conversation, though I sometimes have to ask for repetition of particular words and phrases.

I can generally follow the main points of extended discussion around me, provided speech is clearly articulated in standard dialect.

I can maintain a conversation or discussion but may sometimes be difficult to follow when trying to say exactly what I would like to.

I've long thought that B1 is vastly underrated: It's when you can travel, hold real conversations (even if your brain is melting from sheer overload and your vocabulary is limited), read books slowly but with enjoyment, and understand really easy native broadcasts such as science documentaries on familiar subjects. At B1, everything is still confusing and hard, but you've achieved a very real sort of independence.

casamata wrote:

It is one thing to understand tourist level knowledge of language A, another to understand a formal news broadcast, and a very different thing understanding a show at the comedy club. Somebody that understands the "gist" may have a very different definition of that than others.

If you read a lot of informal native materials (VDM, Topito, etc.), there's no reason you can't get, say, 40% of the jokes in a standup comedy routine by the time you reach B2. I even get some of Patrick Huard's jokes these days, despite having made no particular study of informal dialects in Quebec.

Quote:

"What is getting the "gist" mean for you? In the following sentence:

"George met his friend at the bookstore and they perused the comics section before getting a bite to eat at the local restaurant."

Is the gist: 1. "George met friend and they did something."
2. "George met friend at bookstore, they bought something, ate somewhere."
3. Hearing every single word but not knowing a few words like "comics" or "bite to eat"?
4. Understanding the literal definition (but not subtle connotations) of all the words as well as the main message?

Once you reach a solid intermediate level, at least in a Romance language, that sentence is most likely to come through as:

Quote:

George met his friend at the bookstore and they … the comics section before getting a bite to eat at the local restaurant.

All the other words in that sentence are basic social and survival stuff that you'll run into constantly. And the missing word can not only be inferred from context, but after you hear it 10 or 20 times in similar phrases, you'll probably pick it up automatically.

3 persons have voted this message useful

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