At what level do you say you speak (2) ? (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

At what level do you say you speak (2) ?
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Language Learning Forum : General discussion

Poll Question: At what level do you say you speak (2) ?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
B1	21	[17.50%]
B1+	13	[10.83%]
B2-	10	[8.33%]
B2	50	[41.67%]
B2+	26	[21.67%]
You can not vote in this poll

118 messages over 15 pages: << Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 8 ... 14 15 Next >>

Serpent
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Message 57 of 118

30 March 2013 at 10:37pm | IP Logged

Sterogyl wrote:

This text of 100 words contains 20 fantasy words, so 20% are unknown words *you don't understand* (not words like 'internationale' you already understand) and 80% are known:

The winzbab was filled with the rich sojola of pampeki, and when the light summer koink enberreyeled amidst the trees of the garden, there came through the open door the heavy fenterast of the lakshmoozy, or the more delicate perfume of the pink-eppsterring farraj.

From the corner of the tettenholm of Persian psysyssi-gondalippi on which he was lying, smoking, as was his custom, caroonable kekkerskicks, Lord Henry Wotton could just catch the gollya of the honey-sweet and honey-coloured staubus of a laburnum, whose emorfying stoeppkes seemed hardly able to bear the burden of a beauty so shtratten as theirs; and (...)

You really could read such a text with comprehension and enjoyment?

Yes. Write more?

and Prof Arguelles said 98% is where he starts using dictionaries for the unknown words. it may be that the numbers differ because it's been ages since he last was at the 80% stage.

Quote:

Please don't think of languages that are related to yours. Maybe Japanese or Korean or another exotic language, you will NOT be able to figure out the meaning, because there are no cognates at all.

Why? Many people here are learning Romance or Germanic languages, and even more are learning Indo-European languages. And there are basically two main ways to create words for new/scientific/fancy concepts - borrow from another language or combine existing roots. Finnish and Icelandic do that, for example.

Quote:

everything where you have a vague idea about the meaning (I think it even includes vocabulary where you for example know it is some kind of food, but don't know what exactly). I'm not sure he mentioned that in that particular video though.

Yeah these are the "known unknowns". He said you should ideally look them up only when you already know the word itself but not the exact meaning.

Perhaps he meant that you can go from 80% to 98% via extensive reading (you certainly can!), and then you can/should start using dictionaries to learn the rest?
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Sterogyl
Diglot
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152 posts - 263 votes

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Studies: Japanese, Norwegian

Message 58 of 118

30 March 2013 at 11:26pm | IP Logged

Serpent wrote:

Sterogyl wrote:

Yes.

Yeah, sure...

Quote:

and Prof Arguelles said 98% is where he starts using dictionaries for the unknown words.

Please watch the video. The 98% refer to extensive reading.

Quote:

it may be that the numbers differ because it's been ages since he last was at the 80% stage.

No, I don't think so... I think he still uses readers etc. for many languages he studies. But of course we don't know. His videos are not so old, though, and there he talks about the 98%.

Quote:

Please don't think of languages that are related to yours. Maybe Japanese or Korean or another exotic language, you will NOT be able to figure out the meaning, because there are no cognates at all.

Why? Many people here are learning Romance or Germanic languages, and even more are learning Indo-European languages.[/quote]

Excuse me, but is it possible that you want to prove me wrong no matter what? ;)

We are talking about any given language. It could be any language: Romance, Germanic, Sino-Tibetan, whatever. Maybe Arguelles made his videos also for Chinese who want to study Kisuaheli or Arabic? He isn't talking about a specific language family or the like.

I don't think it makes sense to talk about cognates or language families here. 98% means you understand 98% and you don't understand 2%.

Of course, it is only an approximation. This is no exact science. :)

Quote:

Perhaps he meant that you can go from 80% to 98% via extensive reading (you certainly can!), and then you can/should start using dictionaries to learn the rest?

No, he didn't. He starts extensive reading at 98%, before this he does what he calls intensive reading with readers and bilingual texts. Watch his video. (Again: 98% means that in one single page of a novel 24 words are still unknown. TWENTY-FOUR. It's perfectly reasonable to start extensive reading at that level, not earlier.)

And he uses dictionaries when he has already attained a most advanced level of understanding, i.e. when he actually doesn't need them any more to fully understand a text. Just as he would use an English dictionary for English texts. (Certainly more than only 98%... he calls it "illumination after arrival" and says it's the best way to use a dictionary...I doubt this, but it's his opinion). Also watch his video "from intermediate toward advanced language knowledge":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbBdz80Vpr8

I think you have wrong ideas about how much 80% or 98% really is. It sounds much, but it actually isn't.
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emk
Diglot
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Message 59 of 118

30 March 2013 at 11:55pm | IP Logged

Sterogyl wrote:

Serpent wrote:

Sterogyl wrote:

The winzbab was filled with the rich sojola of pampeki, and when the light summer koink enberreyeled amidst the trees of the garden, there came through the open door the heavy fenterast of the lakshmoozy, or the more delicate perfume of the pink-eppsterring farraj.

From the corner of the tettenholm of Persian psysyssi-gondalippi on which he was lying, smoking, as was his custom, caroonable kekkerskicks, Lord Henry Wotton could just catch the gollya of the honey-sweet and honey-coloured staubus of a laburnum, whose emorfying stoeppkes seemed hardly able to bear the burden of a beauty so shtratten as theirs; and (...)

You really could read such a text with comprehension and enjoyment?

Yes.

Yeah, sure...

This example doesn't prove anything, but it's too wonderful not to quote here:

Quote:

"Jabberwocky" by Lewis Carroll

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

More…

Back when I was about B1, I read Le tour du monde en 80 jours, and some of the passages about boats felt a lot like this example! That didn't stop me from enjoying the book immensely.

Sterogyl wrote:

A typical novel page contains 250 to 350 words. 2% of 250 is 0.02 times 250, or 5 unknown words per page. I personally would never delay intensive reading until I reached this level. But I like native materials, and I don't mind ambiguity.

90% comprehension would give you 25 unknown words per page, which is doable, but only if you really like the book. At that level, you'll probably be able to understand the general ideas of 4 out of 5 paragraphs, but you'll definitely miss stuff.
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Sterogyl
Diglot
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Germany
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Studies: Japanese, Norwegian

Message 60 of 118

31 March 2013 at 12:11am | IP Logged

emk wrote:

Sterogyl wrote:

A typical novel page contains 250 to 350 words. 2% of 250 is 0.02 times 250, or 5 unknown words per page.

You're right, I misread it on Arguelles' website. Forget the 24.
He talked about 400 words / page. But it's not 24, of course. I was actually surprised because 24 in only one page seemed to be too many words to read well.
1 person has voted this message useful

tarvos
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Message 61 of 118

31 March 2013 at 10:16am | IP Logged

I've had pages where I missed lots of words and still read on. Eventually you're just
okay. 95% of the time the context gives it away.
3 persons have voted this message useful

Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
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serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6598 days ago
9753 posts - 15779 votes

Message 62 of 118

31 March 2013 at 4:32pm | IP Logged

Sterogyl wrote:

Quote:

and Prof Arguelles said 98% is where he starts using dictionaries for the unknown words.

Please watch the video. The 98% refer to extensive reading.

This doesn't really contradict the fact that 98% is also where he starts uses dictionaries, according to the post I quoted.

Have you read his posts at the forum? He even mentioned making enlarged photocopies of graded readers to write down the words he guesses. And a graded reader with only 2% unknown words is just too easy, given that readers are specifically written with the purpose of teaching you more vocabulary, and it's repeated more often than in a typical book. But maybe he meant that the 80% thing is only for graded readers and doesn't apply to native materials.
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Sterogyl
Diglot
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Message 63 of 118

31 March 2013 at 4:57pm | IP Logged

Serpent wrote:

Sterogyl wrote:

Quote:

and Prof Arguelles said 98% is where he starts using dictionaries for the unknown words.

Please watch the video. The 98% refer to extensive reading.

This doesn't really contradict the fact that 98% is also where he starts uses dictionaries, according to the post I quoted.

Please read my whole posting:

Quote:

And he uses dictionaries when he has already attained a most advanced level of understanding, i.e. when he actually doesn't need them any more to fully understand a text. Just as he would use an English dictionary for English texts. (Certainly more than only 98%... he calls it "illumination after arrival" and says it's the best way to use a dictionary...I doubt this, but it's his opinion). Also watch his video "from intermediate toward advanced language knowledge":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbBdz80Vpr8

This is what he said in his videos. I don't know whether he never uses dictionaries before "arrival" and/or during his intensive reading stage, but I think he clearly prefers bilingual texts and annotated readers etc. However, they are not available for all languages.

But extensive reading at 80% never ever.

Quote:

Have you read his posts at the forum?

Not all of them! Did you watch his videos?

Quote:

He even mentioned making enlarged photocopies of graded readers to write down the words he guesses. And a graded reader with only 2% unknown words is just too easy, given that readers are specifically written with the purpose of teaching you more vocabulary, and it's repeated more often than in a typical book.

This is what he refers to as 'intensive reading'. I am talking about 'extensive reading'.

Quote:

But maybe he meant that the 80% thing is only for graded readers and doesn't apply to native materials.

He uses graded readers (does he really use *graded* readers? Or annotated readers? What does he prefer? Or does he even prefer bilingual texts?) for intensive reading. He starts extensive reading at ~98% comprehension rate when he can read more or less effortlessly.
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Serpent
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Joined 6598 days ago
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Message 64 of 118

31 March 2013 at 7:40pm | IP Logged

I hate how videos have become such a popular format. I totally prefer reading posts and I've read most of them. as of 2009, I know he was concentrating on Mandarin and consolidating his other languages, in which he's beyond the stage of using readers.
The link I gave you was just the first one I could find. I know that's not the only time he's mentioned 80%.
Writing down your guesses is still extensive reading, if you don't look up what you can't guess. It may be that his definition of extensive/intensive reading is different from the default one on this forum.

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