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Is counting your vocabulary size useless? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes  Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 185 of 210 24 August 2012 at 3:29am | IP Logged | ||
Taking into account that fun is in the eye of the beholder :), the question still remains whether long-term results would be affected by having a tutor from day one, or speaking to the natives from day one. I am fairly strongly inclined to think the answer is yes when it comes to accent. I am also inclined to think that it is not unlikely that the rest of one's long-term conversational skills would also be better if one started speaking early, but this is a lot murkier in my mind. I wish we knew for sure, assuming there is an answer that applies to the majority of learners. Edited by frenkeld on 24 August 2012 at 3:38am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 186 of 210 24 August 2012 at 3:36am | IP Logged | ||
I never said anything about small talk, or at least didn't mean to. My question was whether one's long-term conversational skills are negatively affected by not speaking to a native speaker and/or a native tutor early on. Long-term skills are automatically assumed to be of considerable range - small talk would be just a tool to start speaking early, when one could not yet talk about anything more substantial. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6703 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 187 of 210 24 August 2012 at 11:25am | IP Logged | ||
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I didn't assume that you specifically referred to small talk, but every time spoken fluency is used as an evaluation tool small talk will be part of the deal - and for people with a very limited vocabulary, but a high degree of dexterity in using it (like the people s_allard has described) small talk will presumably be their only kind of communication.
I personally feel that the ability to write in a foreign language can be just as relevant (hence my objection as formulated above), but even within the realm of speech we should acknowledge that the ability to say "umph" and grunt and react quickly to interruptions may be relevant, but being able to speak in nice long sentences with an inner logic is to my ears a more valuable skill - and the way to get there may not automatically go over standard formless smalltalk. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 188 of 210 24 August 2012 at 1:24pm | IP Logged | ||
This is another great post from @iversen because it reveals exactly how different goals in language learning determine how one assess performance. As I stated earlier, @iversen and I have reversed priorities. For him writing and reading come before oral comprehension and oral production. For me it is the opposite. It is only natural then that for him the key tool of assessment is the ability to write an essay on a "well known subject." Presumably, the examiner has no interaction with the examinee and would look at things like spelling, grammar, argumentation, vocabulary size, etc. The ability to speak the language is not assessed. What is my key tool of assessment? It is a conversation with a native examiner using a certain protocol. Along the lines of the CEFR model I think one should assess what the speaker can do. And what are we trying to assess in terms of oral production? Here are just a few items: 1. The ability to interact with the other person and maintain conversational flow. 2. The ability to explain ideas of varying levels of complexity. 3. The ability to give advice and counsel. 4. The ability to express a range of emotions. 5. The ability to express humour in the language by telling jokes and describing an embarrassing event 6. The ability to express opinions and debate both sides of a controversial topic such as sushi should be banned in restaurants because of the detrimental impact on the fish stocks 7. The ability to give instructions: for example, explain how to do some common task. This could include how to cook a favourite dish, how to drive a car, how to use a device, how to look for a house to buy or rent, etc. 8. The ability to use different registers in the language. Obviously, we are not talking about "umphs", "grunts" and "formless smalltalk." (By the way, how can smalltalk be formless?). On the other hand, part of the assessment would be the ability to to use fillers and other discourse markers in the maintenance of conversational flow. So, it is quite evident that @iversen and I are measuring different skills. I am not saying which skills are more valuable. I like "nice long sentences with an inner logic." Is there somebody against that? But I also like to be amused by a good joke or a good story. It should be quite clear that I'm not saying that a person with a 300-word family vocabulary can do all this to the level of a native speaker. Let's compare oranges with oranges. I would have to think more about this, but it could be along the lines of comparing a @iversen-type writer with a @s_allard-type speaker of equal vocabulary. All of this boils down to what we trying to assess: the ability to write in the language or the ability to exchange with native speakers? Edited by s_allard on 24 August 2012 at 1:38pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 189 of 210 24 August 2012 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | ||
We haven't really discussed small talk here, but I find it very amusing that @iversen assumes that "small talk will presumably be the only kind of communication" of people with a small vocabulary. In a sense, this is what this debate is all about. For some people, the idea that anything "useful" can be done with a 300-word family vocabulary is impossible to comprehend. Just keep in mind that what I've always said is that a small vocabulary--call it 300 words--is the threshold to be able to speak a language. Never have I said that one can have long complex conversations at that level. That said, if a 300 word vocabulary in Russian means that I could make "small talk" with a group of native speakers in a train compartment during a trip from Moscow to St-Petersberg, I would be totally happy. Small talk is better than no talk at all. If small talk means the ability to accomplish basic activities and to have a fluent conversation with native speakers around a table, give me more! The funny think is that many language learners with a lot more than 300 words can't make small talk. How large a vocabulary do you need to tell a joke in a language or to tell a simple story? Why do so many people stutter and flounder in a foreign language when 300 words will allow you to make small talk? Every day I hear people say to me, "My reading and writing in French is pretty good, but my speaking has a way to go." What they are saying is that they can't speak it, period. Not even small talk. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 190 of 210 24 August 2012 at 2:47pm | IP Logged | ||
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I really think that much of this debate about vocabulary size has run its course, and it has come down to opinion rather than science. This leads me to think we should take up the suggestion made by @mooby a few posts back that we should be talking more about the minimum number of constructs rather than words.
I think about this as I see my Spanish student develop an understanding of how English grammar works. For example, when I ask, "When did you last speak to your wife?", he wants to say: I did last speak to my wife there is two days. instead of: I spoke to my wife two days ago. There are a few things going on here, but the key problem is understanding the role of the interrogative auxiliary "did." And then the transformation of "speak" to "spoke." So, we have to get that figured out. Then we work on "ago." So, here it's not really an issue of more vocabulary. It's more a problem of understanding how English works to convey certain meanings. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 191 of 210 25 August 2012 at 12:21am | IP Logged | ||
"Small talk" has become a rather loaded term in this thread, so why not discuss "speaking skills" instead. This term refers to no particular context and is both neutral and general. Exchanges of daily life is only one of several contexts that can be examined in assessing one's overall speaking proficiency. Edited by frenkeld on 25 August 2012 at 12:53am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7205 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 192 of 210 25 August 2012 at 7:39am | IP Logged | ||
I've had many conversations with Spanish speaking immigrants and depending on the person's vocabulary and disposition for talking, one can have an extensive conversation about real live events even when grammar is poor. It goes like this: "When did you last speak to your wife?" I did last speak to my wife there is two days. "Oh, you spoke to your wife two days ago". Ah yes, I spoke to my wife two days ago. And the conversation goes on and on if the vocabulary and desire are there to support a long talk. Edited by luke on 25 August 2012 at 9:33pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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