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Can one speak better than understand? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Kerrie Senior Member United States justpaste.it/Kerrie2 Joined 5339 days ago 1232 posts - 1740 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 89 of 186 22 September 2012 at 11:11pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Benny is in Brazil learning Arabic. =) 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Eternica Triglot Newbie United States Joined 5016 days ago 24 posts - 74 votes Speaks: Cantonese, English*, French Studies: Hungarian, Spanish | Message 90 of 186 23 September 2012 at 6:21am | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't understand why people are still debating that it is impossible (note the
absoluteness of this word: it means that it just takes one counterexample to prove that it is possible) to speak better than you understand. Here is the key: to express an idea, there are an INFINITE number of ways to do so. However, you only need to know one to be able to express/speak this idea. I speak far better Hungarian than I understand because I was able to selectively learn the concepts that I tend to express. For example, if I want to express that I don't remember something. I could just say "Nem emlékszem.'' However, you could express this perhaps as "Elfelejtettem" (I forgot) or "Nem jut az eszembe" (It's not coming to my head) or a host of other possibilities. This is the main thing, but of course, there are others such as word order or long complex sentences. Furthermore, you may think you know a specific word. However, this word could have many many meanings that you do not understand. Idioms, anyone? Maybe I know the word "take" as in "take this pencil". However, a beginner may be confused when he or she hears "take this freeway" (which can be expressed as "go on this freeway") or "he's taken" (which can be expressed as "he has a girlfriend") Now, it's obvious why it is possible (but not necessarily the case) that one can speak better than he or she can understand. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Wulfgar Senior Member United States Joined 4615 days ago 404 posts - 791 votes Speaks: English* | Message 91 of 186 23 September 2012 at 9:04am | IP Logged | |||||
Not spending time in this thread - there's nothing to learn here. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4651 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 92 of 186 23 September 2012 at 10:27am | IP Logged | |||||
I do believe conversing helps in learning to decode other people's information, yes. But I've done no research on how the actual result really ends up - I believe in talking and conversing, and on every one of my immersive trips I have succeeded in it, but I've done them in languages I had a B1 level in at the very minimum, at which immersion is just a booster anyways. I am planning to do it in Russia next summer and then my level will be lower, we'll see how it works. I cannot understand Russian movies but I can talk on VK. We'll see. Edited by tarvos on 23 September 2012 at 10:28am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| showtime17 Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Slovakia gainweightjournal.co Joined 6028 days ago 154 posts - 210 votes Speaks: Russian, English*, Czech*, Slovak*, French, Spanish Studies: Ukrainian, Polish, Dutch | Message 93 of 186 23 September 2012 at 1:20pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Yeah it is possible to speak a language better than understanding it. Although that depends on your definition of "understanding" and "speaking". I can say I am in this situation with my Spanish. I can say that I am fluent in the language and I can basically say whatever I want in the language, but I still have great difficulty understanding native speakers of the language, especially when they talk among themselves. I "speak" the language, although not always grammatically correctly. I can "understand" non-native speakers basically 100%, however with native speakers I have come across problems.
Most language learners learn a language by being exposed to a very high level formal version of the language. The native speakers they come into contact with are usually the teacher or some recordings. There, the native speech is enunciated properly and sometimes is slowed down. It also doesn't contain any slang or colloqualisms. However in reality the language is spoken in a very different manner (and often differently in different regions as well) by native speakers, who often don't enunciate well, speak fast and use a lot of slang. Most language learners if they learn in a classroom setting only practice their languages with other non-native speakers of the language, so they are used to non-native ways of speaking the language. Even if you're a native speaker, you might have problems understanding different versions of your own native language. For example I consider myself a native speaker of English, having lived for a long time in the US as a kid and speak it with an American accent. However a few years ago I was in Scotland and had very great difficulties in understanding sometimes even very basic stuff, often leading to comical situations. :) Or in Slovak as well, similar things apply. I consider myself a native speaker of standard Slovak and can also understand quite well the different ways the language is spoken in the western part of the country. However I often find myself having problems in understanding Slovak speakers from eastern Slovakia and a lot of times I have to ask them to repeat what they said. It is because they put stresses and intonations on different parts of the word and use a higher pitch, which I am not used to. So yes, in my opinion, you can sometimes say that you speak a language better than you understand it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5374 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 94 of 186 23 September 2012 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
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All the examples given here are situations where people say that they have difficulty understanding native speakers in certain situations, e.g. Hungarian, Russian, Scottish and American English. This is not unusual. It happens in our native languages, as I have said many times before.
Interestingly, many people claim that since they can't understand certain things or certain dialects, they therefore speak better than they understand. But this is not what we're talking about. As a learner, one is always confronted with unknown words or expression that we don't know. Should we conclude that we always speak better than we understand? In this sense, we always speak better than we understand. Right now, I can say that I speak better Russian than I can understand after my two hours of Russian classes. This isn't the point here. The real issue is how can we speak things that we don't understand. For example, in English I learn the use of the verb "to do'" that has a very rich set of uses. The question here is that when I hear somebody use "to do" I don't understand things that I say that I can use. Can I use "to do" and not understand when it is used to me? But not some different or exotic use of "to do." 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6541 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 95 of 186 23 September 2012 at 4:20pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Well I don't think that dialects and slang are irrelevant, and I've said 345739 times that it's not about specific words or grammar structures. (although specific words can be a problem, especially short ones)
3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Eternica Triglot Newbie United States Joined 5016 days ago 24 posts - 74 votes Speaks: Cantonese, English*, French Studies: Hungarian, Spanish | Message 96 of 186 23 September 2012 at 6:39pm | IP Logged | |||||
I mean, if you qualify the topic of this thread to this idea of "Can we speak things that we don't understand?", then clearly, the answer is no. If you don't understand a sentence in its exact formulation, it also implies that you will not be able to create it in the first place. Let me quote your initial post:
The way you formulated this question is different from what you are expressing in your previous post (and your title, as will be explained in the second to the last paragraph). Again, I will reiterate: the answer to your original question is a logical YES. Actually, let me be more specific as to what I mean: it is possible to speak a language BETTER than one understands it (as per the TITLE of your thread). If you change the meaning of your original question to "Is it possible to speak what we can't understand", then the answer is likely NO as per my previous argument. If this is your intent, then it helps to rewrite your original post and thread title. The main thing is: when people say "I speak better than I understand", they usually are communicating a meaning akin to the first formulation of the question (I mean: take this statement literally and your logic will follow). Thus, if one chooses to argue with a person who says this, then you must know what this person is trying to state. All too often, citizens of this world are not making logical or relevant arguments because they are not addressing what is the exact essence of an individual's statement. Now, if you really want to debate your exact formulation "Is it possible to speak a language WELL and understand POORLY?" (which is not the TITLE of your thread, but in your body), then there's far too much subjectivity (in my opinion, subjectivity that leads to useless side tangents) to get a conclusive result and you will get continued debate. What does "poorly" mean? What does "well" mean? People will start arguing over semantics, which dilutes the usefulness of a topic. I still think the answer is yes: one can selectively learn how to phrase all his or her essential thoughts to be very articulate, but neglect the infinite number of possibilities that a native speaker has to express his or hers. Remember: you only need ONE counterargument to prove "is it possible" type questions. Thus, it is most likely that the answer is yes unless you have some very clear cut question such as "Is it possible to jump in the air and never hit the ground again?" If the question is a bit dicy and vague and leads to many possibilities, then the answer is most likely yes. 10 persons have voted this message useful |
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