Register  Login  Active Topics  Maps  

Can one speak better than understand?

 Language Learning Forum : General discussion Post Reply
186 messages over 24 pages: << Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 14 ... 23 24 Next >>
s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5422 days ago
2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 105 of 186
24 September 2012 at 2:04pm | IP Logged 
I think @Iversen's post is a wonderful contribution that allows us to move forward in this debate. The facts are quite clear. Although @Iversen doesn't answer the question explicitly, we can ask: Does Iversen speak the languages mentioned better than he understands them? There are two answers.

1. Using various sources and techniques, @Iversen is able to make a video of himself speaking certain languages, albeit with some editing. And at the same time he admits that he could not understand these languages in a simple TV format or in talking with native speakers. Therefore, he speaks (to himself) better than he understands.

2. @Iversen could not have any spontaneous communication with a native speaker and is unable to understand anything of a simple TV broadcast in the standard language. This does not qualify as speaking the language (for purposes of communicating). Therefore he does not speak (with other people) better than he understands.

I think both answers are valid. I have my preference, but I recognize the other as equally good.
1 person has voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6589 days ago
9753 posts - 15779 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 106 of 186
24 September 2012 at 2:47pm | IP Logged 
You're missing it again. Being able to produce a monologue but not to respond to questions doesn't mean a native speaker wouldn't understand you. I've listened to the Russian part of Iversen's video and I understood most of what he said. Face-to-face, I'd probably understand him even better.



Of course there are few if any jobs where producing monologue is enough but this doesn't mean it's useless to be able to speak but not understand speech. It's certainly better than only having a reading knowledge and not being able to understand speech.

Let me imagine myself as an employer now. there ARE jobs that require reading skills only. Two people have them, one of them is also able to write and say aloud what he's been able to write. Unless the other person's reading skills are superior, I'd prefer the one that has some speaking skills too, even if he admits he can't understand a movie or a conversation.

And job isn't everything...
4 persons have voted this message useful



s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5422 days ago
2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 107 of 186
24 September 2012 at 3:25pm | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
You're missing it again. Being able to produce a monologue but not to respond to questions doesn't mean a native speaker wouldn't understand you. I've listened to the Russian part of Iversen's video and I understood most of what he said. Face-to-face, I'd probably understand him even better.



Of course there are few if any jobs where producing monologue is enough but this doesn't mean it's useless to be able to speak but not understand speech. It's certainly better than only having a reading knowledge and not being able to understand speech.

Let me imagine myself as an employer now. there ARE jobs that require reading skills only. Two people have them, one of them is also able to write and say aloud what he's been able to write. Unless the other person's reading skills are superior, I'd prefer the one that has some speaking skills too, even if he admits he can't understand a movie or a conversation.

And job isn't everything...

I may be missing it, but I think the issue isn't whether native speakers can understand @iversen--I'm sure he does a credible job--it's whether he can understand native speakers!

I have no doubt that there are jobs where one is required solely to read a text in a foreign language. But, frankly, I doubt that @iversen, or anybody in their right mind, would apply for a job that says "must speak language X" and not be able to do more than read a prepared text. I'm sure that would make for an interesting job interview.

Edited by s_allard on 24 September 2012 at 3:56pm
1 person has voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6589 days ago
9753 posts - 15779 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 108 of 186
24 September 2012 at 6:02pm | IP Logged 
But then it's unfair to say he speaks to himself. He can speak to native speakers. But maybe not converse.
1 person has voted this message useful



Kerrie
Senior Member
United States
justpaste.it/Kerrie2
Joined 5387 days ago
1232 posts - 1740 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 109 of 186
24 September 2012 at 7:57pm | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:
I may be missing it, but I think the issue isn't whether native speakers can understand @iversen--I'm sure he does a credible job--it's whether he can understand native speakers!


So what is this whole thread about?

You ask in the original post:

s_allard wrote:
In an other thread, the op stated that they could speak a target language fairly well but could hardly understood more than a couple words of any answer from a native speaker. But this was not limited to conversation with native speakers. He/she could hardly make out words of a television program or a movie. It seems then that this person could speak much better than they could understand.

Within that thread I started a discussion as to whether a language learner could really speak better than they could understand. I took the position--that seemed intuitive to me--that the vast majority of learners find it easier to understand a language (a passive skill) rather than actually speak it (an active skill). Most people say to me, "I can understand somewhat or quite a bit, but I have difficulty speaking."

To my great surprise, quite a few people in the thread actually claimed that it's easier to speak than to understand and that they could speak a language well yet they have difficulty understanding native speakers.

I know there are issues of accents, slang and unusual vocabulary, but can one really say that one speaks a language well yet is unable to understand something of a television program in the target language?


Okay, if Iverson can do a credible job speaking - well enough to be understood by natives, he can speak the language. Maybe he cannot converse, but there is a difference between the two.

Your definition of to speak seems to be that you can have a full conversation with a native speaker and keep up with everything they say. To most of us (correct me if I'm wrong, everyone else), that's basic fluency.

You're having an entirely different discussion than the rest of us are.
9 persons have voted this message useful



s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5422 days ago
2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 110 of 186
24 September 2012 at 8:49pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
... But the series also comprised a number of languages which I only can read (and sometimes only with the help of a dictionary), and in this case I would probably not be able to understand a spoken source unless it was extraordinarily easy and clearly pronounced.

So to make these videos I wrote down things I wanted to say and thought about them for several days, and I tried to listen to internet TV and radio to get the correct 'sound' of the languages - though not always with resounding success. Basically you can say I learned a number of formulas by heart and used them to concoct a seemingly free speech. And things that went wrong were mercilessly cut out until I had a reasonably wellstructured result.

Actually this is the kind of learning which I could use before visiting a foreign country, and then I would be in the situation formulated by the OP: I would be able to read and I would be able to say some sentences - but I wouldn't be prepared for answers with unknown words and expressions, and I wouldn't have trained listening to native speakers to the level where I could understand a simple news broadcast in a standard language, not to speak of dialects and badly pronounced utterances.

...

Well, here is what the debate is about. And I want to thank @iversen for providing this excellent example. For some people here, one can speak a language by writing down in advance what one wants to say, thinking about it, rehearsing with various sources and then making a monologue in front of a video. This person could barely understand the language and obviously could not conduct any kind of meaningful conversation.

For these people this qualifies as speaking the language. Technically, this is true because the person is opening their mouth and words are coming out. I think this is a valid viewpoint.

At the same time, it leads me to question what our language profiles here at HTLAL really mean. Is this how most of us "speak" the languages we list? Should we be a bit more circumspect when we see all the languages after a person's name? Is this how those polyglots speak 4 languages or more?Is this how @iversen speaks that long list of languages that he displays in his profile? I suspect not.

I personally am very modest about my language abilities because I feel my other languages are not really strong enough to warrant listing here. But maybe I should be more generous with myself and include all those languages where I can at most make some decent sounds.
1 person has voted this message useful



tommus
Senior Member
CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5858 days ago
979 posts - 1688 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish

 
 Message 111 of 186
24 September 2012 at 11:50pm | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:
I personally am very modest about my language abilities because I feel my other languages are not really strong enough to warrant listing here. But maybe I should be more generous with myself and include all those languages where I can at most make some decent sounds.

I think that would put a lot of your comments in context. You don't have to be at an advanced C2 level to list the languages you are learning.
2 persons have voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6589 days ago
9753 posts - 15779 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 112 of 186
25 September 2012 at 2:26am | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:
I personally am very modest about my language abilities because I feel my other languages are not really strong enough to warrant listing here.
This makes it sound like you're not serious enough about those languages. That's what the speaks/studies division is for, and the further division by the level reached. Given that "studying actively" is once a week, I assume that someone either studies less often or has started very recently or can't figure out how to add the language if they speak about it but it's not in their profile.

Also, while for you nothing seems to matter as long as one is unable to have a conversation, for me the difference between a rehearsed and unprepared monologue is very important.

Edited by Serpent on 04 April 2014 at 9:08pm


2 persons have voted this message useful



This discussion contains 186 messages over 24 pages: << Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24  Next >>


Post ReplyPost New Topic Printable version Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page was generated in 0.4688 seconds.


DHTML Menu By Milonic JavaScript
Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved
No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization.