Can one speak better than understand? (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Can one speak better than understand?
Tags: Comprehension/understanding \| Listening \| Speaking
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Language Learning Forum : General discussion

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Kerrie
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Message 169 of 186

28 September 2012 at 9:12pm | IP Logged

s_allard wrote:

I wonder what our Internet polyglots think about this. Do people like Steve Kaufman, Profressor Arguelles, Richard Simcott, Luca Lampariello, Benny the Irish Polyglot or Moses McCormick claim to speak better than they understand? I don't know and I can't even begin to guess.

What I have noticed is that in a number of recent videos, we do actually see some of these polyglots having real conversation either with natives or with other polyglots. Steve Kaufman does a good job at this. Richard Simcott has an outstanding video of himself with our HTLAL Kristina (all at speakingfluently.com).

This is a refreshing change from the usual videos of talking heads cycling through their repertoire of languages. It's great to hear these polyglots actually speaking their languages with other people. The results for the languages I understand are actually quite good, especially Steve Kaufman, Luca Lampariello, Cristina and Richard Simcott.

But to come back to our question in this thread. Can we say that these highly talented individuals speak better than they understand? Cristina and Richard seem to do a credible job speaking Russian to each other. If either one meets a native Russian speaker that they have difficulty understanding, should they conclude that they speak Russian better than they understand it? I wonder what they think.

I find it fascinating that so many people claim to speak better than they understand. Is speaking easier than listening? They can't have conversations with native speakers and have difficulty understanding the spoken language in the media. But this only reinforces their assessment that they speak better than they understand. Speaking isn't the problem, it's understanding the spoken language.

So you're comparing the best of the best to the rest? So if Einstein can understand relativity, everyone else should be able to as well?

Michael Phelps can swim faster than most of the world. Is it fair to compare his abilities to yours?

I'm still trying to figure out what makes your opinions more right than anyone else's. I honestly can't believe half of what comes out of your mouth.

Edited by Kerrie on 28 September 2012 at 9:13pm
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s_allard
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Message 170 of 186

28 September 2012 at 9:22pm | IP Logged

Kerrie wrote:

...
So you're comparing the best of the best to the rest? So if Einstein can understand relativity, everyone else should be able to as well?

Michael Phelps can swim faster than most of the world. Is it fair to compare his abilities to yours?

I'm still trying to figure out what makes your opinions more right than anyone else's. I honestly can't believe half of what comes out of your mouth.

Can I not ask a simple question? I don't ask people to believe. I ask people to debate facts and data not with insults. If I see data that disprove my opinions, I will change my mind. I do not hesitate to apologize when I have said something wrong or impolite. Shouting is hot the best way to debate.
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Kerrie
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Message 171 of 186

28 September 2012 at 10:13pm | IP Logged

You cannot prove an always/never theory with any one person's point of view. Or ten people. No matter how expert they are. There have been a half a dozen people who have given you valid examples of situations where it IS possible to speak better than understand.

I would value an "expert" opinion here as well. However, you posed a question in this thread that has been answered over and over again.

And every time another one is raised, you change your definitions and start all over again. :D
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s_allard
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Message 172 of 186

28 September 2012 at 11:04pm | IP Logged

The funny thing is that I also believe that there are situations where it is possible to speak better than understand. The best and most articulate example was given by @iversen. I certainly think it is possible the open one's mouth and say words that one can barely understand when spoken by somebody else. Some people here insist that kind of monologue is the real meaning of "to speak" a language. Technically this is true. We have already gone over this.

I even mentioned the notorious example of Ziad Fazah who can speak 58 languages better than he can understand them.

What I have done is said that maybe we should look at the definition of speaking to be more synonymous with communicating orally. Some people complained that I moved the ball and changed the definition of speaking from monologue to dialogue, all to my advantage. All i was doing was trying to emphasize the fact that most of the time we learn a language to speak with other people.

I won't repeat the other arguments because I'm sick of listening to myself having to repeat stuff we discussed pages ago. I really prefer to look at other examples and test cases. I encourage people to bring forth more examples of how they or others speak better than they understand. Maybe I'll see something that will really convince me that I'm wrong.

Edited by s_allard on 28 September 2012 at 11:28pm
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tommus
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Message 173 of 186

28 September 2012 at 11:40pm | IP Logged

s_allard wrote:

The funny thing is that I also believe that there are situations where it is possible to speak better than understand.

Finally! That answers the question in your thread. Now we all agree. Time to close this thread and get on to something more important and less futile. Lets use our energy for something more productive.

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iguanamon
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Message 174 of 186

29 September 2012 at 12:02am | IP Logged

I worry about myself. I don't worry about others. "Speak better than understand"? That depends upon how one defines "speak". A phonetic language like Spanish is easier for an English-speaker to master pronunciation than a tonal language like Vietnamese or a non-phonetic language like Danish. The mechanics of some languages are easier to master than the mechanics of others as regards pronunciation. Since pronouncing words and putting them together into a coherent sentence is "speaking". I see how someone can say that. I'd prefer to say that I can make myself understood better than I can understand what is being said in that situation..

I define "speaking" a language as being able to get my point across and understand what my partner in conversation is trying to relate to me with a minimum of difficulty and stress for both partners.

Barry Farber- How To Learn Any Language wrote:

There will come a moment when I will cross a border and earn the right to say, “Yes, I speak your language”!

There’s no such border. Learning a language is a process of encroachment into the unknown. When can you say you “speak a language”? The famous ophthalmologist Dr. Peter Halberg of New York refuses to consider that he speaks a language unless and until he can conduct a medical lecture in the language and then take hostile questioning from his peers. By his standards, he only speaks five languages!

My standards are less exacting. I’ll confess to “speaking a language” if, after engaging in deep conversation with a charming woman from a country whose language I’m studying, I have difficulty the next morning recalling which language it was we were speaking.

Here we have two different definitions of what the word "speak" means as it relates to language learning. I'm with Farber on this one. It appears that @s_allard may be in Dr. Halberg's camp. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just an opinion and also, to a certain extent, semantics as regards the word "speaks".

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Serpent
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Message 175 of 186

29 September 2012 at 12:41am | IP Logged

I like your definition but not Barry Farber's, tbh. Not being aware isn't a must.

But as I said, saying "I speak X better than I understand it" changes the meaning quite a bit. This doesn't really mean "I speak X", full stop. I can see how it bothers some if anyone below their standards pronounces the words "I speak X", but they're just a part of a sentence so the person's right to say them doesn't depend on whether it's true but on whether the whole sentence is true. I think s_allard kind of sees "I speak X better than I understand it" as containing the claim "I speak X". I don't see it this way though.

"I can make myself understood" is a good way to word it! Unfortunately it can be clumsy in other languages though...

Edited by Serpent on 29 September 2012 at 12:44am
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montmorency
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Message 176 of 186

29 September 2012 at 12:47am | IP Logged

s_allard wrote:

montmorency wrote:

s_allard wrote:

How many adult learners achieve native-like proficiency? We've had this debate many
times here at HTLAL, and all the statistics point to the fact that very, very few adult
learners lose their original accent and achieve anything like full native proficiency.
I have never met any, but I am willing to say that it does exist.

Interesting point. I was just about to say there are probably no statistics about this, but then noticed your phrase "all the statistics"?

Where are such statistics?

And how meaningful are they?

...

This rarity of native-like proficiency in second-language learners is very well known and has been studied extensively. Here is one reference:

jilaniwarsi.tripod.com/first_comp.pdf

Here is a quote from this article:

As Selinker (1972) points out, the most important fact concerning L2 phonology is the phenomenon of fossilization. He claims that “fossilizable linguistic phenomena are linguistic items, rules, and subsystems which speakers of a particular native language will tend to keep in their interlanguage relative to a particular target language, no matter what the age of the learner or amount of explanation or instruction he receives in the target language.”
Similar views are put forth by Tarone (1976), Nemser (1971), and Sridhar (1980), who have tried to explore the causes of fossilization in language learner’s interlanguage phonologies. There are two related questions here which have baffled scholars:
1. Is phonological fossilization inevitable for L2 learners?
2. What are the causes of such fossilization?
According to Scovel (1969), the answer to the first question is a resounding yes. He contends that adult language learners maintain a typical accent which is indicative of their first language (L1). Scovel has named this the ‘Joseph Conrad Phenomenon’ after the prominent British author who achieved native-like fluency in English syntax (his L2) but retained a Polish accent (his L1). Scovel is so confident of his theory that he promises to offer a free dinner to anyone who can show him someone who learned a L2
after puberty and who speaks that L2 with perfect native like pronunciation. No one has, hitherto, been able to produce such an individual to Scovel.

Well, thank you for providing a research paper, even if it is a little slim, and the project involved only 4 subjects, 2 in the test group, 2 in the control group. They had learned their English in Japan, from Japanese teachers. Admittedly, during the project, they were in the USA and being taught by a native English speaking teacher, but that's not the way they had done most of their English-learning.

In fact, even within that paper, the situation (in terms of general research) isn't as clear-cut as your quotes seem to indicate. I could have quoted several other parts which put it in a different light. But people can read it for themselves. But I will quote this:

Quote:

It would be inappropriate to claim, however, that native-like productive phonology can only be achieved with the special training the subjects of this study received. As mentioned earlier, even though it is extremely rare that adult language learners succeed in acquiring native-like phonology and manage to avoid producing their L2 phonetic forms without a detectable foreign accent, some learners may succeed in overcoming their problems in producing difficult L2 sounds without any phonetic training. The performance of the subjects in the control group may improve with more exposure to the target culture and individualized practice, but Flege et al., (1995b) consider it an exception.

My emphasis
"more exposure"....isn't that something we are always going on about here? We obviously think that is important, and it seems the author of that paper agrees.

However, as for "even though it is extremely rare that adult language learners succeed in acquiring native-like phonology and manage to avoid producing their L2 phonetic forms without a detectable foreign accent...", well that was stated (possibly more than once) without any statistical evidence to back it up, and it was statistics I asked about, since you had mentioned the subject, and you implied there were loads of statistics. Where are they? Not in this paper for sure.

But in a way, it's missing the point, which is that, in my opinion, meaningful statistics on such a thing are impossible to gather, and I doubt if anyone is making any attempt to collect them in any case. I'll repeat again: self-learners. Who would be collecting the statistics on them?

As for the "dinner test", I don't find it convincing. Most people are unlikely to have heard of Scovel, and even if they had, they might not find it worth the bother of travelling possibly great distances just for one measly dinner!

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