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Can one speak better than understand? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5379 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes  Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 49 of 186 21 September 2012 at 5:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
Ok, but these skills are NOT AT ALL equivalent. It's easier to understand someone trying to get their point across than to get your point across yourself. Understand X is still easier than producing X. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5764 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 50 of 186 21 September 2012 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | |||||
Yes. I just would never equate getting my point across with being able to express myself well. Native speakers talking to you might use some kind of foreignese (and maybe a good one at that), but movies don't do that. Either you get it from listening only, or you don't. If you don't, it's because your listening comprehension is too low (and that might have a number of reasons.) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 51 of 186 21 September 2012 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
As for not equivalent, why should it be equivalent? A lack of balance is natural. You SHOULD be able to understand more than you can say. You're in trouble if you can't understand anything more complicated than what you're able to produce. A few examples where understanding is more difficult than production: -homonyms or homophones: easy to produce, can be difficult to process -words with multiple meanings: easy to produce (ironically, this will especially be easy if you actually drill them native-target AND still think in your native language and translate), harder to identify the meaning on the go -the functions of cases and prepositions: if you've drilled them, they can also be easier to produce, compared to the difficulty of figuring out the meaning -yes, it's easy to listen to a struggling non-native...if his L1 is the same as yours! if not, being able to understand clumsy speech easier than proper speech is not a good sign. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 52 of 186 21 September 2012 at 6:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5530 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 53 of 186 21 September 2012 at 7:15pm | IP Logged | |||||
Last time we did a poll, I think the consensus was that HTLAL "basic fluency" was about B2 for most learners. This would require "getting your point across" reasonably quickly, on a wide range of common topics, without too much stress for either party, and without consistently making the same mistakes in every other sentence. Eloquence and a precise vocabulary are strictly optional. :-) I agree that it's possible to do all of the above and not reliably understand movies, or full-speed conversations in a group of native speakers. So yeah, if you look at it right, you can be pretty functional as a speaker but still believe that your listening skills are horribly weak. In absolute terms, sure, you actually listen better than you speak. But listening may still be your biggest problem. Edited by emk on 21 September 2012 at 7:17pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 54 of 186 21 September 2012 at 7:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
I totally disagree with this idea that these things are more difficult to understand than to produce. It is the very opposite. The reason understanding is easier is that it is essentially a passive activity. You are given the words in context. You can derive the meaning. Homonyms and homophones are rarely a problem because you have the context. The same thing with words that have many meanings. They are used in context. Idioms are more difficult of course but you also have the general context. Now producing speech remotely close to native-like is much more difficult because it is an active process that must be done instantly. Figuring out meaning, especially in context, social and linguistic, is much easier than creating meaning in context. Speaking requires a very complex process of choosing the right words, putting them in the right form, in the right order and then articulating them. Now it's your turn to create context. Words with multiple meanings are among the most tricky not the easiest. English verbs like "go, get, let, give, run, see, say" are amongst the most challenging to use correctly because the difficulty is how to distinguish the many meanings. And then you have the world of idioms and collocations. Many things can go wrong. And that is why we always sound like a foreigner most of the time. And this is why is takes such a long time to get it right. You have to be able to understand--at least yourself-- in order to speak. You don't have to be able to speak in order to understand. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 55 of 186 21 September 2012 at 7:41pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'm not sure if listening or oral comprehension is ever the biggest problem. I'm of the opinion that speaking is always the biggest challenge. But to come back to this issue of basic fluency at B2, the question isn't whether you can not understand a C2 or native conversation. The fundamental question is whether your oral comprehension skills are at B1 or A2 instead of B2 like your speaking skill. This is my understanding of speaking better than one can understand. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5530 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 56 of 186 21 September 2012 at 9:13pm | IP Logged | |||||
Well, doesn't this just boil down to the question of whether you can comfortably pass the oral production section of a B2 exam and still somehow flunk the listening section? The answer to this question is certainly yes. My DELF B2 oral presentation was tons of fun for everybody, and the examiners were actually giggling by the end of our conversation. In 20 minutes, I only had to ask for one question to be repeated. In contrast, one of the two listening comprehension sections was hideously difficult. I maybe had 40% comprehension, and bluffed my way to a fairly high score by picking out keywords. (The other listening comprehension section was easy.) How did this happen? Well, I spoke French at home, and spent 3 hours a week debating French public policy with a tutor. But I had no real strategy for listening comprehension. In fact, my plan was to use speaking, reading and writing to rack up the bulk of my points. Does this mean that my speaking was actually better than my listening? Not really. But relative to the typical B2 student, I was certainly a strong speaker and a weak listener. (Today, my listening skills are stronger, but my speaking skills are stagnant, because I don't spend enough time having abstract conversations in French. I'm still fine in social conversation, but I'd want a few days of practice before doing another B2 oral presentation on single-sex schools or teenage rebellion or whatnot.) 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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