Can adult learners achieve native levels? (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Can adult learners achieve native levels?
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Language Learning Forum : General discussion

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Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
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Speaks: Russian*

Message 97 of 303

04 October 2012 at 2:47pm | IP Logged

s_allard wrote:

One of the problems of people who are obsessed with native-like pronunciation is that
they tend to neglect other skills such as reading properly.

Where are those people? And if you have good accent from the beginning, you learn all the
words in the correct form. And it is difficult to change an accent when a lot of things
have already been learnt.
2 persons have voted this message useful

Medulin
Tetraglot
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Croatia
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Message 98 of 303

04 October 2012 at 4:42pm | IP Logged

Марк wrote:

Ari wrote:

It seems to me the major argument why one shouldn't work on one's accent
is that it's mostly a waste of time. The vast majority of learners can work on their
pronunciation until they're blue in the face and they won't get anywhere near native-
like. Whereas the ones with a good accent don't need to spend time on it because it
comes naturally. Sure, spend some hours working on understanding how the phonemes work
and try to pronounce them correctly, but don't spend too much time on it, because
that's time you could spend on grammar and vocab instead, where the ratio of effort to
results is much better. Until someone comes up with some hard evidence I'm going to
assume that accent if more or less fixed. If the first word you say in German doesn't
sound like a German would say it, no word you say ever will, and no amount of "silent
periods", shadowing* or virgin blood consumed under a full moon will get you there.
Accept it and move on.

* Don't get me wrong, shadowing is a great method, but it's not gonna give you a
perfect accent, as Arguelles will testify.

No. Working on pronunciation gives better and quicker results. It took me several
minutes to learn how to pronounce "the" and I'm still not sure how to use it. I learned
languages at school and university and I know that good pronunciation is not required.
And what's better: to say "he like" instead of "he likes" or to say "shit" instead of
"sheet"?

In Australia, many people pronounce shit with IPA i,
the only difference between shit and sheet being the length of the vowel.

Edited by Medulin on 04 October 2012 at 4:43pm
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beano
Diglot
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United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name
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Message 99 of 303

04 October 2012 at 4:57pm | IP Logged

I think it's better to speak with an accent. People warm to strange accents and it's a part of your identity. I can pronounce German words properly but the intonation of my voice will always be Scots....it's who I am! Consciously trying to change that would be a futile exercise and a waste of time. Language learning to me isn't a project in accosutic physics, I have no desire to ape native speech to the nearest herz until the waveforms of our voices have their amplitudes perfectly aligned.

If I moved to Liverpool, I would not try and adopt Scouse dialect speech patterns, why should I try an banish my accent in a foreign language?

Edited by beano on 04 October 2012 at 4:58pm
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Arekkusu
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Canada
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Message 100 of 303

04 October 2012 at 5:15pm | IP Logged

beano wrote:

I think it's better to speak with an accent. People warm to strange accents and it's a part of your identity.

Should we throw in a few grammatical mistakes as well for an even warmer reception?
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Ari
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Norway
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Message 101 of 303

04 October 2012 at 8:29pm | IP Logged

Arekkusu wrote:

Should we throw in a few grammatical mistakes as well for an even warmer reception?

Probably not consciously, but I don't see a big problem in leaving a few in there, depending on your goals. Many learners have two goals when learning a foreign language:

1: To be able to communicate with native speakers without problems.
2: To be able to express themselves in the language in question, that is something more than just communicating raw information.

Any deviation from standard language that doesn't get in the way of number 1 might well become a part of number 2. Look at Schwarzenegger or Banderas. Their accents are part of, at least their "image", if not even their identity. They both communicate well in English. Why would they want a standardized vanilla English accent? Why should we have separate rules for native speakers and nonnatives? What's the big difference between an Australian accent and a French one? What's the big difference between a southern US speaker using "y'all" rather than "you" and a Swedish speaker saying "on the street" rather than "in the street"? To a person unused to an Australian accent it will pose as big a problem as a (light) French one. And the same goes for grammar peculiarities.

If someone has problems communicating in English because of their accent and/or grammar, it might be a good idea to learn to speak in a more standardized way. This applies whether the person is a native speaker or not. On the other hand, if the person has no problems communicating, should we still demand that they should standardize their speech, but only if they're not a native speaker? Language learning is about communication, not about mimicking others, no matter how old you are when you learn.
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Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 5057 days ago
2096 posts - 2972 votes

Speaks: Russian*

Message 102 of 303

04 October 2012 at 8:32pm | IP Logged

In oral speech pronunciation is more important than grammar because it is the very basic
part of a language. But it is often the case that we don't need to speek a language. For
example, I read in English every day but haven't spoken it for years. And I've spoken
English only several times in my life beyond the classroom.
1 person has voted this message useful

Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 5057 days ago
2096 posts - 2972 votes

Speaks: Russian*

Message 103 of 303

04 October 2012 at 8:41pm | IP Logged

Ari wrote:

Any deviation from standard language that doesn't get in the way of number 1 might well
become a part of number 2. Look at Schwarzenegger or Banderas. Their accents are part
of, at least their "image", if not even their identity. They both communicate well
in English. Why would they want a standardized vanilla English accent? Why should we
have separate rules for native speakers and nonnatives? What's the big difference
between an Australian accent and a French one? What's the big difference between a
southern US speaker using "y'all" rather than "you" and a Swedish speaker saying "on
the street" rather than "in the street"? To a person unused to an Australian accent it
will pose as big a problem as a (light) French one. And the same goes for grammar
peculiarities.

In order to have a light accent and good grammar a French should work hard trying to
approach a standart.
1 person has voted this message useful

Iversen
Super Polyglot
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Message 104 of 303

05 October 2012 at 11:43am | IP Logged

Insofar I have an accent and make errors of any kind in a target language it isn't something I do for fun or beause I want it as part of my image as a friendly foreigner - I have just come to the conclusion that my time is better spent on learning new things than on perfecting the old ones - in combination with the observation that I slowly get better in my 'good' languages through simple exposure even though I do relatively little intensive language studies in those languages.

If I had to move towards a native level pronunciation in a language I would definitely go to some place where one pleasant dialect was spoken by almost anyone, and where I would have to speak a lot. But for touristical purposes I more often than not end up in big cities with a mixed population, and even though I do speak I don't speak as much as people who are au pairs or very social types. Nevertheless I can feel the predominant local dialects creep unto me within the first couple of days, and that's enough for me. It shows that I have not become not totally fossilized yet, but can pick up clues from my surroundings. And I don't try to hide that I'm a proud Dane on holiday.

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