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Can adult learners achieve native levels? | ||
Tags: Native Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| LaughingChimp Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4700 days ago 346 posts - 594 votes  Speaks: Czech* | Message 145 of 303 12 October 2012 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
It shouldn't be. You must be doing something wrong. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 146 of 303 12 October 2012 at 4:21pm | IP Logged | |||||
He says he sounds native. Can't be that wrong. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 147 of 303 12 October 2012 at 4:28pm | IP Logged | |||||
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The question of language coaches came up a few times. I don’t advertise myself as a language coach, but I have been paid to act as such on a few occasions, so this is my experience.
The first step is to analyze the person’s speech patterns and identify the most important issues. You could go on and on about details but you’ve got to start somewhere meaningful where change would be most important or effective. Then you need to communicate to that person what they are doing wrong. If done well, this part is usually quite entertaining and encouraging and filled with ah-HA moments since most people have no clue what they are doing wrong and you are telling them about a lot of details they never noticed but which make perfect sense to them. This can be done in one session or sometimes in two. You could either just listen to the person and take notes, or you could record the session, analyze it later, and give out the details at the next session. Over the following sessions, you tackle, one by one, the issues you’ve prioritized. You present examples, list of words, words alone, then in phrases and sentences, and you try to get the person to achieve some level of independence so they can identify when they are off, how to get back to the right sound -- so they can eventually self-correct. However, the level of success – and duration – of the second part of the programme depends on several factors. Determination is one such factor – if the student is only mildly determined, he will not put the necessary effort to remember this new information and apply it to his everyday speech, and it will be almost useless. If the student is very determined, then they will also need to move past certain hurdles they perhaps never considered before such as “do I really want to sound like an [English] speaker?” (and many don't, or else they convince themselves that they don't when they realize how hard it is.). There is also an initial point where they’ll start being extra careful and watching everything they say, and this is sometimes enough to discourage them. The real decisive factor here is how much they are willing to experiment on their own and try to incorporate this new information into their everyday lives. It’s so much easier to just go back to the way you’ve always spoken. As a coach, the analysis and advice portion is the simplest and most useful -- then it's up to people to work on fixing their problems. It’s actually not uncommon for people to come to a point, after a bit of work with a coach, where they can fix all, or at least the vast majority, of their problems when they concentrate on them in isolation, but integrating all of these changes in non-careful, naturally flowing speech is the last frontier very, very few people succeed at. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 148 of 303 12 October 2012 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | |||||
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This is a great post by @Arekkusu that gives a pretty good idea of what is involved in accent correction. I truly believe that this cannot be done alone.
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 149 of 303 12 October 2012 at 4:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
Well... technically, if you can be a coach for others (or if you learn how to do this), you should be able to give it a pretty good go on your own. Of course, you'll need to elicit some corrections or comments from some native speakers on and off to steer you in the right direction. Edited by Arekkusu on 12 October 2012 at 4:50pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 150 of 303 12 October 2012 at 4:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
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And even if you need a bit of feedback that means it's still attainable. No one said you
had to go solo. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 151 of 303 12 October 2012 at 4:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
Feedback is always necessary in language learning, even if it's passive (you notice things others say differently, etc.) -- there's no reason to avoid this. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 152 of 303 12 October 2012 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I am aware of this, but the point s_allard makes hinges on "achieving it alone", which is
as you just rightly pointed out a ridiculous assertion anyway. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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