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Can adult learners achieve native levels? | ||
Tags: Native Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| LaughingChimp Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4700 days ago 346 posts - 594 votes  Speaks: Czech* | Message 193 of 303 18 October 2012 at 1:10am | IP Logged | |||||
That's exactly why learning pronunciation by phonemes is a bad idea.
Could it be that you just don't notice those who pass for native speakers? 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 194 of 303 18 October 2012 at 2:07am | IP Logged | |||||
Maybe in Canada the presence of French gives you a bit of a leeway? You may wonder whether someone is bilingual and slightly better at French, for example. Also the necessity to learn at least some French means a non-native in Canada will have a slightly better knowledge of the "fancy words" in English. They might even use them a bit too casually - but if they learn to do it just right, this will produce a favourable impression as well. Just speaking from my experience, though... Russian has a very complicated morphology, so it's hard enough to speak 100% correctly AND it's studied widely enough that almost any small mistake will make me think you're a very good learner:/ Sorry:( This summer in Finland, there was a Russian-speaking waiter at a restaurant and the rest of my family was relieved/happy/excited about that. I however spoke to him in Finnish because I was perfectly sure he was a non-native. Well, turns out he IS a native but left at a very young age. Oops :( And there was another case when we had a Russian guide, who's also been living in Finland for long. The sad thing is that his Finnish didn't sound native-like at all (though before I knew I was willing to believe he spoke a weird dialect because the truth was just too sad ;_; ). I was actually pretty excited to ask him how he's learned Russian and get some useful advice!!! :( 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| petteri Triglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4933 days ago 117 posts - 208 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, Swedish Studies: German, Spanish | Message 195 of 303 18 October 2012 at 2:12am | IP Logged | |||||
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I reckon the ability to detect minor differences in accents heavily depends on the observer.
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| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5867 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 196 of 303 18 October 2012 at 2:39am | IP Logged | |||||
I don't think they are all that different. I lived for four years in the US. I think the ones who do become natively-fluent are simply not noticeable for obvious reasons. I think they are found more often in situations where assimilation is important, as opposed to areas such as big cities where there are large, original language cultural groups and neighbourhoods. Most of my experience is with former Dutch speakers. Dutch immigrants have amazing integration and assimilation skills, and a very strong desire to do so, as well as a great head-start in English. I once had a long chat in the Netherlands with a young Dutch man (probably mid 20s). He had spent three years in Colorado. I assumed immediately that he was an American with what I took to be an American accent. We talked mostly about American topics and places. After an hour, he mentioned something about being Dutch. I couldn't believe it. He had only been out of The Netherlands for those three years. The Dutch have immigrated to Canada since World War II in large numbers. Yet you never hear of a Dutch neighbourhood. They largely assimilate, and very quickly. And speak excellent English very quickly. Even Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands speaks excellent British-sounding English. I haven't heard her speak much English, but based on what I have heard, I think most Canadians and Americans could mistakenly assume she was native-British. I'd be interested in further comments about her command of British English. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 197 of 303 18 October 2012 at 2:46am | IP Logged | |||||
And an experience in language learning can be both an asset and a drawback. My relatives were far more ready to accept the two people I mentioned as native speakers. Apart from my 15 year-old cousin, they've heard more non-native Russian (before the USSR collapsed) and they also have a far more vague idea of what it takes to reach fluency in any language. Edited by Serpent on 18 October 2012 at 2:51am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| anamsc2 Tetraglot Groupie United States Joined 4560 days ago 85 posts - 186 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Catalan, German Studies: French | Message 198 of 303 18 October 2012 at 3:27am | IP Logged | |||||
Yes, of course, that's possible. However, why is it that nobody I've ever known well enough to ask where they're from (which is not a rare thing to ask here, as people come from all over the state and the country, as well as the world) happened to fall into that category? I mean, sure, the people I interact with very trivially (cashiers at a store, for example) could very well be foreign and have native-sounding English. However, none of the people I have spoken more that 100 words to (coworkers, friends, neighbors, teammates, even strangers I randomly talk to on the bus or at a bar) has ever had me thinking they were native when they weren't. I'm not including those who moved to the US as children, of course. I also want to make it clear that I'm not saying these people don't exist. And I'm not saying that foreigners have terrible English; on the contrary, it's usually great. It's just that it's not native. I'm also guilty of the fake surprised "Oh no way! I thought you were from the US!" every once in a while... 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| pesahson Diglot Senior Member Poland Joined 5729 days ago 448 posts - 840 votes Speaks: Polish*, English Studies: French, Portuguese, Norwegian | Message 199 of 303 18 October 2012 at 8:40am | IP Logged | |||||
Why would you do that? Saying that someone's English is very good surely is enough, it would be for me. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 200 of 303 18 October 2012 at 10:19am | IP Logged | |||||
But they keep their birthday calendars in the toilet, right? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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