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Can adult learners achieve native levels?

  Tags: Native Fluency
 Language Learning Forum : General discussion Post Reply
303 messages over 38 pages: 1 24 5 6 7 ... 3 ... 37 38 Next >>
atama warui
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 Message 17 of 303
01 October 2012 at 2:36pm | IP Logged 
Richard Simcott sounds like "a German from somewhere else in Germany" for my ear. If he gets rid of his bad habit of inserting fillers all the time, he can pass as a native speaker.

That alone is enough evidence for me to believe it'`s possible to achieve native-like pronunciation.
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tarvos
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 Message 18 of 303
01 October 2012 at 2:45pm | IP Logged 
Lol, my German friend was like "wir sprechen überhaupt durchaus mit Füllwörter" (or
something to that effect) and actually told me to use more fillers when I speak German.
This was especially important as I was speaking German colloquially

Edited by tarvos on 01 October 2012 at 2:46pm

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s_allard
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 Message 19 of 303
01 October 2012 at 4:51pm | IP Logged 
Is it possible to achieve native-like proficiency in a foreign language at an adult age? Maybe. I really don't know. What we do know is that it's just extremely rare for adult learners to say that they have attained that level of proficiency.

If we define native-like proficiency as that of an individual that resembles the learner in terms of age, educational background, social class, etc. the chances of an adult attaining that kind of proficiency are extremely remote for a simple reason. The amount of accumulated exposure of the native speaker can not be reproduced, even in a condensed form, by the learner.

Consider a 25 year-old native speaker who may have 16 years of formal schooling, has looked at 1000's of hours of television and movies, read a hundred books, heard how many 1000's of hours of spoken language and, finally, has spoken over 10,000 hours of that language from the earliest age. Think of the linguistic baggage that this person has.

I don't think any of us have any illusions about being able to reproduce this. What qualifies for "native-like" around here is really pronunciation. If you sound like a native, for most people you qualify as a native. Now this is hard enough, but some people are very good mimics. So, in that sense, I think it's doable, although quite rare. But that's not the same as having native-like overall proficiency.

I must add that I'm of the school of thought that believes that perfect pronunciation is neither necessary nor desirable. I'm not saying that mangling the language is good. I just think that grammar and vocabulary are much more important and that a little accent may be a good thing.

EDIT: changes "100's of years" to "1000's of hours"

Edited by s_allard on 01 October 2012 at 5:41pm

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DaraghM
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 Message 20 of 303
01 October 2012 at 5:12pm | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:
Consider a 25 year-old native speaker who may have 16 years of formal schooling, has looked at 1000's of years of television and movies,


If I looked at 1000's of years of television, I'd be fluent in every language. :-)
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beano
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 Message 21 of 303
01 October 2012 at 5:13pm | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:

I must add that I'm of the school of thought that believes that perfect pronunciation is neither necessary nor desirable. I'm not saying that mangling the language is good. I just think that grammar and vocabulary are much more important and that a little accent may be a good thing.


Agreed. People place far too much importance on trying to speak without a discernible accent in the hope that one day someone will mistake them for a native speaker because they sound like one. To me, that seems like a waste of resources and it would be far better actually improving your spoken command of a language rather than trying to mimic every nuance of a native speaker's pitch and tone.

I once had a visitor from Germany who claimed she had been mistaken for an English native. That I can believe as she produced a pretty good approximation of a Home Counties accent. Thing is, there were major gaps in her vocabulary and I think it would have been better to fill these rather than trying to train your vocal chords to make you sound like someone you are not.

Of course, pronunciation should be at least close to the accepted sound, but unless you are an undercover spy, it isn't necessary to erase all traces of what you perceive to be an accent. People expect foreigners to sound a little funny. I know I can go to Germany and get almost anything I want from the hardware store....I really don't care whether or not the sales assistant thinks I'm German.

Edited by beano on 01 October 2012 at 5:20pm

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Arekkusu
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 Message 22 of 303
01 October 2012 at 5:17pm | IP Logged 
I am convinced that some people can learn to reach near-native level as an adult. Actually, I know this as a fact.

I am also convinced that some people simply CANNOT.

As for the people in between, I'm much less convinced that determination and desire alone are sufficient to do so. I think a certain dose of talent or intelligence is required.
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Марк
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 Message 23 of 303
01 October 2012 at 5:32pm | IP Logged 
They certainly can.
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Serpent
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 Message 24 of 303
01 October 2012 at 5:39pm | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:
What qualifies for "native-like" around here is really pronunciation.
And the grammar too. It was in the academic article you quoted. Having a native-like command of grammar is for many easier than achieving a native-like pronunciation. Each of these is useless without the other, well not useless but it gives you away.


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