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Can adult learners achieve native levels? | ||
Tags: Native Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 25 of 303 01 October 2012 at 5:58pm | IP Logged | ||
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As I said, depending on what qualifies as native-like proficiency, one may be able to achieve it. To me the fundamental question is why would one want to pass for native if this is what we mean by native-like fluency.
I think it's a question of personal satisfaction to be able in certain cases to surprise and impress people because of the contrast between the way one looks and the way one sounds. So, I don't look Russian but when I open my mouth I sound like someone from Moscow. Many people would be impressed. But suppose I can pass physically for a member of that language group and I speak like a native. No one is surprised or impressed. I'm an ordinary speaker like everybody else. I blend in totally. Is this what I want? Maybe if I'm an undercover agent. Although I think it's a great personal achievement to sound like a native in a language, I'm not really excited by seeing it because essentially the person sounds like everybody else. I'm surrounded by native speakers. Hearing another native speaker is not interesting in itself. What really impresses me is not perfect pronunciation, it is a command of the language, the ability to express oneself in an articulate and sophisticated manner. And I believe that a residual trace of a foreign accent makes this accomplishment all the more impressive. Otherwise you sound just like any native speaker. Edited by s_allard on 01 October 2012 at 6:50pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4845 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 26 of 303 01 October 2012 at 6:39pm | IP Logged | ||
LOL, that's what makes me think he IS a real German. His constant "ne?" and "überhaupt" and so on sound absolutely native-like. It may not be the most educated kind of German, but it's real colloquial German. And yes, his pronunciation is spot on! So, to answer the question: Yes, I believe grown-ups can learn a language up to native fluency. I know several Englishmen who came to Germany with the British Army (i.e. as grown-ups) and who have learnt German to a very high degree of fluency. They do make some errors sometimes, and their pronunciation is still "very British", but they are absolutely fluent, even in idioms and the like. So, I believe getting your grammar and vocabulary right is the easier part. Getting a native-like pronunciation is really hard. Some people (like Richard) have a talent for imitating accents, but most people don't. They'll still have an accent after 50 years of total immersion. Edited by Josquin on 01 October 2012 at 6:42pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 27 of 303 01 October 2012 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | ||
People just don't pay enough attention to pronunciation. In fact, it is easier than grammar and vocabulary, because it's very limited. I think everybody can achieve a native-like pronunciation in two months, just nobody trains it. I'm not afraid of being considered a native speaker of any language except for Russian/ Это мне не грозит (it doesn't threaten me). Edited by Марк on 02 October 2012 at 11:25am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6910 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 28 of 303 01 October 2012 at 7:31pm | IP Logged | ||
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There are probably hopeless cases (I think I've met a few....) but generally I think that "most people" can achieve pretty good results in short time - with proper guidance, e.g. something like Olle Kjellin's chorusing.
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| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 29 of 303 01 October 2012 at 7:46pm | IP Logged | ||
Obtaining native-like pronunciation in two months? I'm impressed. But to come back to the OP who asks about statistical studies on the question, I doubt that there are any specific studies that look at the percentages of learners who achieve native-like proficiency for two reasons. First of all, there are major issues of definition and methodology, as I suggested. Secondly, it is plainly evident that the vast majority of adult learners - let's say 95% for sake of argument - never even achieve native-like pronunciation. Just what would a major statistical study show? That the number is 92% or 98%? In fact, one could do a poll here at HTLAL and ask: "How many of you would say that you have achieved native-like proficiency in your target language at an adult age?" That question is ambiguous enough, but it is a start. Now, there are people who claim to have achieved this level of proficiency. I may be a bit skeptical, but I would like to see these people have a conversation with a native speaker on YouTube. Some while ago there was an HTLALer from Scotland who has since been banned for I don't know what reason. At any rate, he always claimed that when he spoke Spanish he could pass for Spanish despite have spent only one short stay in Spain. Given the atrocious errors he made most of the time when he attempted to write in Spanish, many of us were very skeptical and asked that he make a YouTube video of him speaking Spanish. He always refused on the grounds that we would certainly find fault with his video. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 30 of 303 01 October 2012 at 7:51pm | IP Logged | ||
I have made that claim for English. I have videos on YouTube. But one can understand how such an extreme level of scrutiny would make certain people shy. The word is "near-native", after all. Edited by Arekkusu on 01 October 2012 at 7:58pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 31 of 303 01 October 2012 at 8:00pm | IP Logged | ||
I totally agree that good results can be achieved quite quickly. But are we talking about native-like pronunciation? But let's look at this from a different perspective. Do any of the Youtube polyglots like Steve Kaufman, Moses McCormick or Benny sound like native speakers in any of the foreign languages? Does professor Arguelles sound a like native speaker in his many languages? The answer is all no. Mind you, they are all good and will be understood, but I would hardly call them native-sounding. But what difference does it make? Why want to sound native-like? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 32 of 303 01 October 2012 at 8:01pm | IP Logged | ||
That is a good question, deserving its own thread. Edited by Arekkusu on 01 October 2012 at 8:14pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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