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Can adult learners achieve native levels? | ||
Tags: Native Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Darya0Khoshki Triglot Groupie United States Joined 5069 days ago 71 posts - 91 votes  Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written), Arabic (Iraqi) Studies: Persian | Message 33 of 303 01 October 2012 at 8:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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I agree with a lot of the comments here saying that native-like pronunciation alone does not qualify a person as "native level".
I would never claim to have "NO accent" when I speak Arabic because I can't hear myself with Arab ears so I don't really know what I sound like to them, but I have been mistaken for an Arab many times (my looks also help) and actually I think some of my Egyptian co-workers whols still think I'm Iraqi because they think when I say I'm actually American they think that means that I was born in America but my parents are Iraqi. Ha ha. I've had plenty of people tell me I sound just like an Arab when I speak Arabic, but I've also had times of being recognized as non-native. While it's flattering to be asked if I'm from Mosul or Baghdad, I still would not consider myself anywhere near "native level". I fumble for words (I do this in my native language, too, ha, ha ..) and I miss a lot of jokes and slang because I don't have the cultural literacy. So personally I feel pretty self-conscious about my Arabic despite being mistaken for a native speaker. I also know a lot of children of immigrants who speak their parents' language with what we would consider fluency and have no accent, yet are horribly insecure and claim that their (whatever language) is "really bad". (Don't you hate people like that??) They feel like this because they don't use it all the time so they aren't as comfortable, and they aren't educated in it so they don't have all the technical vocabulary. Also my experience in Kurdish Iraq was that Kurds who by anyone's standards were fluent in Arabic, the language of their education, they still claimed to be "bad" and Arabs would also say that these Kurdish speakers' Arabic was "bad". I guess it all depends on who you are comparing yourself to. American have EXTREMELY low standars at what constitutes "fluency" or even speaking a language because it is so rare to find an American who can actually speak another language. Other groups have much higher standars. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Darya0Khoshki Triglot Groupie United States Joined 5069 days ago 71 posts - 91 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written), Arabic (Iraqi) Studies: Persian | Message 34 of 303 01 October 2012 at 8:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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As far as "Why want to sound like a native?" I would say that it is because of prejudice. Some ethnic groups are condescending to foreigners. They speak to them slowly or switch to English at any hint of an accent ... as if to say that their English MUST be better than your (whatever language). There can be ethnic pride that leads to looking down on people "outside".
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| atama warui Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 4702 days ago 594 posts - 985 votes Speaks: German*, English, Japanese | Message 35 of 303 01 October 2012 at 10:29pm | IP Logged | ||
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I will never be mistaken for a Japanese face to face because I look as German as can be. Blue eyes, blond, tall. I don't care about sounding 100% like a Japanese either - my goal is just being as close as I can in vocab, grammar AND pronunciation.
Why? Well, I thought that was obvious. I don't think that sacrificing one skill for another makes sense in the long run. I will help you short-time, to balance out your skills when necessary. Mastery of the language consists of more than only one part of the language. Sometimes I wonder if we argue here for argument's sake. :) However, I think that (and I guess most will agree) that it's possible to get really good, given you're motivated and have all the resources you need, including time and environment. Richard is a nice example, and he also has special techniques for his pronunciation training. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 36 of 303 01 October 2012 at 10:58pm | IP Logged | ||
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 37 of 303 01 October 2012 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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Rather than worrying about whether it's possible to achieve native-like proficiency or whether certain polyglots sound like natives, I think it would be more profitable to study how people achieve high levels of proficiency. In this regard, what I think is fundamental is extensive exposure in some form of immersion to the language at the earliest age. Important things are living in the country, living with a spouse or a family of the language and attending school in the language. This is over and above forms of study whether they be formal or some form of self-teaching.
The actual contact with speakers of the language is particularly important in order to learn the skills of verbal interaction and the cultural codes that go with communicating in the language. So, you may or may not achieve native-like proficiency but you can certainly achieve high levels if you do the right thing and use the right tools. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5131 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 38 of 303 02 October 2012 at 12:46am | IP Logged | ||
I've read this sentiment a few times here on HTLAL, and frankly, I have trouble understanding it. Maybe it's simply because I've never been exposed to any sort of condescension (at least as far as languages go)... I don't know. Most of my languages are related, so it's entirely possible that I just haven't been exposed to that sort of prejudice. I have a Spanish-speaking friend, born and raised here in the US, but of Mexican parents, that has criticized me for not speaking enough Spanish here in this country. We were out walking around one day, and a Hispanic woman pulled up in a car and asked me for directions in English, but with a pretty heavy accent. I answered her in English. My friend (critical of me not speaking enough Spanish) thought it was unconscionable that I not answer her in Spanish. My feeling was (and always has been) that if someone asks a question in a particular language, I'll answer in that same language, provided I'm able to. That has always been my experience in other countries, too. If I speak to someone in Spanish, Italian, Catalan, whatever, I've always been answered in that same language. Prejudice or condescension have never played a part of it. The times I've read of this, there have never been specifics as to how it's come up. I'm curious how you - you in general, not personally - come to the conclusion that it's either prejudice or condescension. R. == 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| showtime17 Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Slovakia gainweightjournal.co Joined 6085 days ago 154 posts - 210 votes Speaks: Russian, English*, Czech*, Slovak*, French, Spanish Studies: Ukrainian, Polish, Dutch | Message 39 of 303 02 October 2012 at 1:05am | IP Logged | ||
What's his technique? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Rout Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5713 days ago 326 posts - 417 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish Studies: Hindi | Message 40 of 303 02 October 2012 at 1:46am | IP Logged | ||
Not to sidetrack but I'm a typical Californian. What's so "noticeable" about a Californian accent? It's as close to standard, non-regional English as you can get. This makes sense, seeing as how the motion picture capital of the US (the world) is located in California. What a strange comment. Wouldn't want anyone learning to get the wrong impression about California as a beautiful state and a great place for a language excursion if you're so inclined to learn Standard American English. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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