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What does "basic fluency" really mean? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| fredomirek Tetraglot Senior Member Poland Joined 6905 days ago 265 posts - 264 votes  Speaks: Polish*, EnglishC1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Japanese | Message 1 of 106 23 July 2006 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've been wondering recently how far I am from labeling my Spanish as "Basic fluency" in my profile as well as my English "Advanced fluency". It's just my personal assessment and therefore I wouldn't like to exagerate. I'm inclined to believe that modesty is quite better here. On the other hand, should you happen to make a brief list including more criteria, it would be easier to choose the actual level of the languages. Perhaps you can just present your method of matching the language with the right level in the profile.
Thank you in advance for any kind of help :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Malcolm Triglot Retired Moderator Senior Member Korea, South Joined 7314 days ago 500 posts - 515 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English*, Spanish, Korean Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Latin | Message 2 of 106 23 July 2006 at 6:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think we all have slightly different ideas of what Basic Fluency means. For me it is the point at which you can function as a competent speaker of the language. I wouldn't claim basic fluency with anything less than 5000 words, though vocabulary alone isn't enough to be "basically fluent". I would say that someone who has finished FSI Spanish/Platiquemos and has memorized a couple thousand extra words is probably at Basic Fluency. I reserve Advanced fluency for speakers who have mastered the language and can pass as a native when writing (e.g. FX and all the Swedish forum members who for some reason can write in English at a native level).
Basic Fluency: -At least a 5000-word active vocabulary. -Knowledge of all grammar points (or perhaps 95%) contained in a typical grammar book, such as "The Ultimate Spanish Review and Practice". -Able to speak without thinking. -Close to 100% listening comprehension if the speaker has a clear accent and is not using any specialized vocabulary or slang. Advanced Fluency: -At least a 10000-word active vocabulary. -Almost no grammar mistakes. -Able to read anything. -100% listening comprehension, except for very difficult accents and obscure slang. -Able to pass as a native speaker when writing. According to the criteria above, it is extremely difficult to achieve Basic Fluency in Mandarin because of the listening comprehension requirement. Does anyone else have different ideas of what Basic Fluency means? Edited by Malcolm on 23 July 2006 at 6:51pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Katie Diglot Senior Member Australia Joined 6717 days ago 495 posts - 599 votes Speaks: English*, Hungarian Studies: French, German | Message 3 of 106 23 July 2006 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | ||
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Malcolm,
You have similar ideas to me. I would class basic fluency as a level whereby you could go to a country of the particular language and be able to communicate effectively in everyday situations there, with very limited hesitations or difficulty. I agree with your notes on advanced fluency. I would like to be around half way between basic fluency and advanced fluency in Hungarian by early next year - so I have my work cut out for me! Katie 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Sinfonia Senior Member Wales Joined 6743 days ago 255 posts - 261 votes Speaks: English* | Message 4 of 106 23 July 2006 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | ||
The trouble is, your rules rule out a lot of (under-educated) native speakers! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Malcolm Triglot Retired Moderator Senior Member Korea, South Joined 7314 days ago 500 posts - 515 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English*, Spanish, Korean Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Latin | Message 5 of 106 23 July 2006 at 8:14pm | IP Logged | ||
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If an adult native speaker has a vocabulary of less than 10,000 words, I'd say it has more to do with severe mental disability than with education. Even children with a low level of education know more than 10,000 words. As for grammar mistakes, I'm not refering to ridiculous prescriptive grammar rules forbidding split infinitives and stranded prepositions. For me, a grammar mistake is something that no moderately educated native speaker would say. For example, "I don't know what's he talking" instead of "I don't know what he's talking about". These are usually word or word translations from a native language to a target language. It is true that a good number of native speakers of certain languages are illiterate, but I feel that a native speaker belongs in a totally different category, Native Fluency, and is therefore exempt from the above requirements.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6942 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 6 of 106 23 July 2006 at 8:41pm | IP Logged | ||
Malcolm, have you purposely left out the writing requirements from the Basic Fluency section? In any case, this brings me to the question I've had on my mind for a while, that of selectively targeting certain language skills when learning a language. I guess if you choose to just learn to read and listen, but not write and speak a language, it's fair to say that you are not "fluent". And yet, if one gets to a point of reading just about anything and understanding the movies and the radio well, it's kind of funny to keep talking about "studying a language" forever either. By the way, I am a bit puzzled by the 10,000 active vocabulary requirement. Does a typical native speaker really possess it? I've seen it somewhere that Shakespear's was close to 30,000, but this is likely about as big as it ever gets. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6767 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 7 of 106 23 July 2006 at 10:21pm | IP Logged | ||
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I agree with Malcolm. I'm pretty sure anyone with less than a 10,000-word
vocabulary in his own language would probably have some sort of learning disability — not to disparage such people, but just to point out that the bar for advanced fluency is quite high. An educated and well-read person might have a vocabulary as large as 50,000 words in his own language. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Farley Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 7091 days ago 681 posts - 739 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, GermanB1, French Studies: Spanish | Message 8 of 106 23 July 2006 at 10:23pm | IP Logged | ||
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Malcolm,
I'm sorry, I would have to disagree with you on the mastery of 5000 words and 95% grammar rules for basic fluency. This does not take into account the differences between active and passive vocabulary and structure. I remembered something similar in "The Loom of Language" and decided to reference it. This is what Frederick Bodmer had to say (the italics are his own):
With that in mind, a 5000-word vocabulary is insufficient for reading and listening comprehension and excessive for oral reproduction. The ability to speak is less a function of how many rules and words we know, but how well we know the basic words and rules. I think this 10 to 1 ratio is a better description of basic fluency. This is certainly manageable on a busy schedule. I guess this is what frenkeld was referring to above; if you are pressed for time there is something to be said for using the language passively in place of studying the language. John Edited by Farley on 20 September 2006 at 10:38am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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