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What does "basic fluency" really mean? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6767 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes  Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 81 of 106 21 September 2006 at 3:31am | IP Logged | |||||
I would say yes if I met my own criteria above. :) Otherwise I'd say "I can get by" or something along those lines.
And the Japanese way is to say you're not very good yet. Giving this response (particularly in response to a compliment on one's Japanese) usually informs the other person that you are, in fact, quite good in spite of your humility. :) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| hagen Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6959 days ago 171 posts - 179 votes 6 sounds Speaks: German*, English, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 82 of 106 21 September 2006 at 4:23am | IP Logged | |||||
Well, meeting your definition of fluency as native-like proficiency obviously scales down to all other possible definitions... :-) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Captlemuel Groupie United States Joined 6721 days ago 58 posts - 60 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Russian, Mandarin | Message 83 of 106 30 September 2006 at 8:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Charlie said: "I just noticed this discussion while searching Google for 'I hate Pimsleur' (because I do).
"The definition of 'fluency' seems pretty simple to me. If you can enter a university and take classes in the target language (aside from language instruction courses), and pass, then you're fluent. If you can't do this, then you're not fluent. "I live in Seoul, South Korea, and study full-time at Yonsei University's Korean Language Institute. I spend four hours a day in-class. I know how to tell when someone is 'fluent' in Korean, and when someone isn't. Most people who say they are 'fluent' are not fluent." So, Charlie, you are saying that you know that the majority of people who say that they are fluent in Korean actually failed their classes taught in the Korean language? and that they are therefore not fluent? And to tell whether someone is fluent, you find out what his or her grades were? Edited by Captlemuel on 02 October 2006 at 5:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| lengua Senior Member United States polyglottery.wordpre Joined 6683 days ago 549 posts - 595 votes Studies: French, Italian, Spanish, German | Message 84 of 106 30 September 2006 at 9:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
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There is also the issue of when to mark oneself as basic fluent on this very website. I like reading language profiles, and over the past hundred or so, I've come across people on one end of the spectrum with 'bf' after little more than Pimsleur 1, while on the other end, there are many people with more than 23 or 25 'skills' who still classify their languages as intermediate. In between, many declare 'bf' after 10, 15, or 20 skills. It may not be possible to commonly agree on what 'bf' means outside of this site, but I wonder if there was a particular number of skills intended to be completed under the current system before one 'bffed' oneself, or if it was always meant to be completely up to the person. I suspect the latter, but it's always fun to ask. :^)
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| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7102 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 85 of 106 01 October 2006 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
You suspect correctly. However, the numbers of skills posted is not the issue - it's the level of skills that matter. For example, I'm unlikely to be concerned that someone who can "Always" do "Advanced Public Speaking" may not have fully mastered the material in Pimsleur I to III because they don't have it on their skill profile. I have nothing below "Dictionary Use" on my French and Spanish profiles and even with that left in (because I got rid of some) I feel like I've ticked the "can tie own shoelaces" or "is able to eat soup without dribbling" box. Andy. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Hencke Tetraglot Moderator Spain Joined 6893 days ago 2340 posts - 2444 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Finnish, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 86 of 106 02 October 2006 at 5:49am | IP Logged | |||||
Sorry to seem negative, but there is no virtue in it being simple if it is dead wrong. There are many problems with that definition: - It puts no requirement on speaking abilites. ( You could probably pass in a subject like math with only elementary knowledge of the language.) - Your skills, interest and talent for the subject matter being studied, completely unrelated to language skills, would influence whether you are "fluent" or not. - Many other non-language related characteristics, are needed for successful university studies. - Many native speakers would not qualify as "fluent". EDIT: Captlemuel, I just noticed that those were not your words. You were quoting somebody else, though it was really hard to see that at first glance. It is better to use the standard format for quotes to avoid confusion. In any case, my comment is still valid. Edited by Hencke on 02 October 2006 at 9:18pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Charlie Newbie Korea, South geocities.com/charle Joined 6640 days ago 17 posts - 18 votes Speaks: English* | Message 87 of 106 02 October 2006 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | |||||
You guys can continue to debate about semantics. It bothers me slightly that you guys have a problem with the concept of a "standard," but in the end, I know that employers and academic institutions look at results on paper, not a self-assessment. Yes, employers will ask for your grades. If they don't look at your grades, they'll look at whether or not you passed, or they'll see what kind of school you went to. If you got a diploma from a school in the language, many employers may consider that "fluent." However, there are some people in this forum who want to say "let's do away with standards entirely." Go ahead, think that way! Your lax standards will make it much easier for me to find a job, because while you're sitting on your laurels saying "I'm fluent," I'll be the one who gets the job because I showed concrete evidence. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| patuco Diglot Moderator Gibraltar Joined 7014 days ago 3795 posts - 4268 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Personal Language Map | Message 88 of 106 02 October 2006 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
This assumes that we are studying languages in order to obtain employment. A great deal of us have no real need to learn any language but we do so anyway for various other reasons. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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