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5 years of 日本語 TAC 13 桜/Schnitzel | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5983 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes  Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 257 of 436 23 June 2013 at 10:27pm | IP Logged | ||
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My first attempt to read a proper French novel was some time back in 1999/2000 when I was preparing to sit my French A level. Marcel Pagnol's La Gloire de mon père was a set text for the course. I had to order it in from the local bookshop and waited several weeks for it to arrive (internet shopping was sadly not an option for me until I was old enough to have my own credit card). I found it really hard going. I felt like I had to stop to look up every other word, many of which I couldn't find in the dictionary. I gave up a few pages in and watched the movie instead. With English subtitles.
I don't really know any more about French today than I did in the year 2000. For every expression I might have picked up in the interim, I've certainly forgotten many more. But somehow I have learned how to read and I think it really is a case of technique over knowledge. Learning how, why and when to read extensively. Learning how (and when) to use a dictionary appropriately. Learning how to cope with ambiguity. Learning to quite literally slow down, just a little bit, which so often is the only thing I need to do to get a passage to make sense. I can thank my work with Japanese for discovering all of these things. My only regret is I didn't discover them sooner. Today I watched 2 episodes of the French dub of Big Bang Theory (for some reason seasons 2, 4, and 5 of the UK DVD releases have French, but seasons 1 & 3 don't - but I've seen them all enough in English not to care too much about continuity now). There were plenty of bits which went straight over my head, but there were also a few sweet segments where I actually laughed (and then realised I was laughing because I'd just understood the joke). A little bit later I had TV5 playing on the TV and realised a good few minutes in that I had been concentrating wholly on the content (a discussion of the differences between the protests in Turkey and the protests in Brazil) and not on the language. I'm now fairly confident that, as far as comprehension is concerned, if all I do for the next couple of months is read books and watch TV, I will make some improvement. But given my experience with Japanese, I should have expected that already. I still intend to give myself a systematic review of grammar (which quite frankly, I was also determined to deal with in a thoroughly sloppy way back in 1999/2000) but I seem to have encountered a stumbling block already. It pains me to admit it here, but I don't think I like studying languages all that much. I love using languages - from reading short stories by Murakami through to throwing around my A1 German just because I'm on holiday (and assume, as a tourist, I can get away with it!) I also quite enjoy reading about languages. I have been known to flick through grammar books just out of curiosity (which actually kind of helps learn expressions anyway). But when it comes down to sitting down with a coursebook and studying methodically and consistently, well, I guess I'm not a good student. At the moment the wall I have built myself is that I can't decide which grammar book to use. I have two. One was bought last time I was in Paris, when I thought it might be a good idea to refresh my French (and then didn't get around to it). The other was the set text for the course I registered for last year and then promptly dropped out of. They both have strengths and weaknesses. They're both just thick enough to be a bit intimidating. I know if I commit to one, there's a good chance I'll never use the other. There's nothing like a sense of guilt over unnecessary purchases to add fuel to the procrastinatory fire. And I know deep down that this is just procrastination. I put off my homework when I was in my A level class, and I'm still putting it off. To be fair, the A level textbook was not great, but that is irrelevant. The reason I'm not naming the books here and asking advice on which to use is because I know ultimately it doesn't matter. They have their strengths and weaknesses, but they would both do the job for me. I might as well just toss a coin. The more fundamental problem is convincing myself that studying from them could be just as rewarding as reading books and watching TV. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Sunja Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6086 days ago 2020 posts - 2295 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 258 of 436 24 June 2013 at 8:25am | IP Logged | ||
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It's great that you've gained so much through learning Japanese and that you can apply it to other languages. That's real inspiration to stick to those hard languages.
you seem to have really advanced through watching TV and reading books. Will a coursebook really help with French? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5983 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 259 of 436 24 June 2013 at 9:39am | IP Logged | ||
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I expect so. I seemed to feel the best progress in Japanese when I was doing some study
alongside exposure to native materials. If nothing else, I think it draws your attention to details you might not have noticed through exposure alone. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5983 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 260 of 436 27 June 2013 at 10:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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So this is my 1000th post. I guess the pressure is on to make the most of it. By some weird coincidence, it is also almost five years to the day since I first thought to myself "maybe I can learn Japanese". It's also nearly ten years to the day since I graduated from university, moved down to Wales and started trying to find my place in the adult world.
Since then I haven't really learned any Welsh. But I have somehow managed to learn how to read books and follow TV shows in Japanese. I do feel like I'm at a bit of a crossroads with my language project right now. I think the fact that I'm calling it a "language project" rather than a "Japanese project" speaks volumes about how things are right now. I've hit a wall with Japanese. I'm well aware you never "finish" a language, but for the time being I'm happy to finish studying this one. I'm content with my books and TV dramas and my N2 certificate. I'm a little disappointed that I'm still not ready to claim I "speak" Japanese, but not motivated enough to do anything about it. To be honest, the mountain I had to climb just to be able to get through an adult book is such that I am proud to be able to say I can read Japanese. The fact I got to this point basically on a whim still amazes me. But I'm bored of studying kanji and I'm frustrated with my attempts to activate the language. This is not to say I won't pick it up again in future, but for now I am happy just maintaining my passive skills. As for what's next, well, that is the crossroads. I was really surprised at how quickly I could start reading French again, and seemed to be able surpass what I could do 13 years ago within about 200 pages. So now I can claim I can read both Japanese and French, which is nice. The thing is I'm not sure if I'm motivated enough to study the language consistently and actually (re)develop active skills. In a way it's a bit like the wall I hit with Japanese. Living in an English-speaking world (well, Welsh is there too if I made the effort, but that's another story), I really struggle to get out there and find opportunities to speak. Reading books and watching TV are low risk, enjoyable activities, and once I hit this point it is a real challenge to push myself to do anything else. German is a bit different. I'm not good enough to read books or watch TV, but when I was in Germany I was perfectly happy to make a fool of myself in basic German. It was good fun. I'm not sure I approve of "speak from day one", but I certainly discovered that it was not only possible, but also both fun and educational to "speak from A1". But now I'm back in my day to day life in the UK, once again, I'm lacking motivation. I don't even have enough knowledge for books or TV, and yet I am so wrapped up in worrying about what I ought to be doing for French or Japanese that I am not studying German consistently either. So here I am. 5 years and 1000 posts later. And I still don't know what I'm doing! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| kraemder Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5185 days ago 1497 posts - 1648 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 261 of 436 27 June 2013 at 11:58pm | IP Logged | ||
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Gratz on 5 years and 1000 posts. Personally I don't think most people really get good
flue y active skills without living in the country of their target language. Sure you can still go for it but it's just not the same. I was looking at languages on android the other day for text to speech and I saw welsh. I thought it was dead lol. What does I know. My phone can definitely speak it though. And I don't understand a word. Do you hear it ever or is it more for scholars and language buffs? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5983 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 262 of 436 28 June 2013 at 8:09pm | IP Logged | ||
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One of the cycle paths I use to get to work has a short section which runs down a narrow passage, with a blind corner at one end. Plenty of people who should know better have a tendency to cycle far too fast in the other direction, so I always make the effort to slow down and sound my bell before entering and leaving the passage. This morning there was a couple cycling ahead of me. They looked pretty uncertain about where they were going, and when I rang my bell the woman jumped so high I thought she was going to fall off her bike. I thought they might be novice cyclists and I felt really bad for scaring them, so when we reached the other side of the passage I apologised for making them jump and explained that I always sound my bell because of the blind corner.
As I was explaining this, a look of fear entered the eyes of the cyclists. It's a look I've seen a few times in my husband. It's the look that says "Argh, someone is talking to me in a foreign language and I can't understand a word of it, what on earth do I do?" I asked them where they were from. France. For a short moment I wondered whether I could continue the exchange in French, but nothing sensible rose to my throat so I had to resort to trying to explain myself in English in as simple and friendly a way as possible. Cycling and tourism are both still developing in my city. I can't go around terrorising French tourists exploring my city by bike like this! I have never wanted to be able to speak French as badly as I did this morning. I need to hold on to that motivation. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5983 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 263 of 436 28 June 2013 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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Kraemder, in answer to your question about Welsh, it is definitely alive and well here! The area I live in has quite a few Welsh speakers compared to the city as a whole, so if you hang around long enough you will hear it spoken on the streets in my neighbourhood. I know a few people who are first language Welsh speakers, and some of them are actually more comfortable communicating in Welsh than English, although you'd still call them bilingual.
There are laws to protect and promote Welsh, so public bodies have to provide all information bilingually and be prepared to communicate with people in Welsh. The most obvious thing when you arrive here is that all road signs and announcements at rail stations are bilingual. Whenever we run a survey at work, we have to do it bilingually and we always get some responses in Welsh. In terms of day to day correspondence, we might get a letter or email in Welsh once every few months, although I've never had a phonecall in Welsh. At least not yet. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Sunja Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6086 days ago 2020 posts - 2295 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 264 of 436 30 June 2013 at 9:11am | IP Logged | ||
I want some French cyclists in my city.. or on foot.. that would be great! 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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