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How many words do we actually need? | ||
Tags: Number of words | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| tastyonions Triglot Senior Member United States goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4667 days ago 1044 posts - 1823 votes  Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 97 of 115 01 February 2013 at 4:50am | IP Logged | ||
It is an interesting idea. Actually, I have a frequency dictionary of French, so maybe I'll try it out myself. I could make February my "month of the 1000 most common French words." I'm sure a bunch of them are already in my active vocabulary simply by virtue of being so common, so I bet with some help from Anki and conversation practice I'd be able to really burn all 1,000 in and discover all kinds of usages by the end of the month. Hmm... :-) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Betjeman Groupie Germany Joined 6145 days ago 85 posts - 204 votes Speaks: German* | Message 98 of 115 01 February 2013 at 9:08am | IP Logged | ||
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Here's a quotation from a book by German linguistics professor Dirk Siepmann, "Wortschatztrainer
Englisch": "If your aim is to master a vocabulary similar to that of an educated English native speaker, you should have actively mastered (depending on the way you count) some 20,000 word families (e.g. appear, disappear, appearance, disappearance) and be able to understand some 75,000 words." Anything less will cause you to simplify and re-formulate your thoughts, which is fine for beginners but not for anyone who wants to express themselves freely and unhindered. Edited by Betjeman on 01 February 2013 at 9:08am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6705 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 99 of 115 01 February 2013 at 10:37am | IP Logged | ||
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If your aim is to master a vocabulary similar to that of an educated native speaker of your target language - whatever that is - then you will almost certainly be in for a disappointment. It takes a lifetime in a relevant setting plus an inquisitive mind to become an educated near-native speaker.
Besides that professor is actually overoptimistic if he believes that even a native educated speaker always can express him/herself "freely and unhindered". Nobody can be an expert in every field, and in areas you have neglected you will NOT be able to speak freely about each and every detail at the level of an expert. As an advanced learner with an expertise on a number of topics you may be able to match educated native speakers in discussions about those topics, and outside them you will have to resort to circumlocutions and simplified utterances. The big difference betwen even an advanced learner and an educated native speaker is more likely to be in the handling of the first couple of thousand words and your ability to solve ultrahard crossword puzzles. Edited by Iversen on 01 February 2013 at 10:47am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Betjeman Groupie Germany Joined 6145 days ago 85 posts - 204 votes Speaks: German* | Message 100 of 115 01 February 2013 at 11:58am | IP Logged | ||
Agreed. I often feel tongue-tied even in my first language. There are also large areas of knowledge in which I am a happy ignoramus. But not always and not in every field. Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with aiming high. A vocabulary of, let's say, 20,000 words is simply much better than those 8,000 words which one is supposed to know at level C2. It is quite feasible, too. At 20 new words a day (in the context of the areas one is interested in) and perhaps with the help of some spaced repetition, the goal is ideally achieved within 2 years (after finishing level C2). So it indeed takes a lifetime, but only that of a rat. It is, of course, for the individual learner to decide whether this is something worth striving for. With French and Swedish, I 'll be perfectly happy with 2000-4000 words of vocabulary and half-decent grammar. With English, well, not so much. Edited by Betjeman on 01 February 2013 at 12:20pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6705 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 101 of 115 01 February 2013 at 12:33pm | IP Logged | ||
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I wouldn't settle for less than 20.000 passive words in any language, but grim realities have forced me to be more relaxed about the size of my active vocabulary in different languages.
2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| petteri Triglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4934 days ago 117 posts - 208 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, Swedish Studies: German, Spanish | Message 102 of 115 01 February 2013 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | ||
In fact I have started huge English vocabulary build-up project more than three months ago. It follows simple rule. When I encounter a English word or idiom which meaning I do not sense immediately I store the information to Anki and cram all the common meanings of the expression. Only very obscure words and absolutely uncommon meanings are omitted. The beginning of the project was really tough as I immediately faced a heavy bulk of very hard-to-cram words; all the pretty common words and meanings I had never learned. But now when I read for example 10 pages of The Economist I only encounter 10 - 30 unclear words depending on the subjects of the articles. I have also gone through some frequency list up to 15000 word range and Freerice until level 30. Now my Anki has some 3500 cards. But interesting enough new cards I stick to the program are easier and easier to learn. In my opinion the core vocabulary is really harder to cram as common words have more diverse meanings and special grammatical use cases. It is not enough just to learn common glossary by heart, but you also have to be able to feel and use the words. The vocabulary after first 5000 word families and most common idioms is often more precise and concrete than the basics. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5432 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 103 of 115 01 February 2013 at 1:22pm | IP Logged | ||
This is a perfect example of the myth that learning a language is all about learning vocabulary. In my opinion, this is totally wrong and basically a recipe for disaster and frustration. First of all, let's deal with these outlandish figures of needing to know 20,000 or 50,000 or 75,000 words or word families. At best, there figures refer to PASSIVE and/or AVAILABLE vocabulary and not ACTIVE vocabulary which is what we really use. As I have pointed out before we actually use only a tiny portion of the entire vocabulary of a language. We may come into contact with and recognize a large number of words but we only USE a small number. The reason we can use such small numbers of words is because our knowledge of grammar allows to recombine those relatively few words into an infinite number of phrases. We acquire and discard vocabulary as we go along. Yesterday I saw a new term to describe a skin disease that afflicts our minister of finance. I have never used it and I don't think I ever will. On the other hands there are words that I use at least 100 times a day. The key to speaking a language well is grammar or morphology, syntax and meaning. It's the ability to put the right form of the words in the right sequence. And all of this on the fly. To say that you can settle for 2000-4000 words and half-decent grammar is precisely the big mistake that most people make. The belief is that the more words you know the better you speak. If only I knew 8000 words, I could speak French well. This is totally wrong. The key to speaking good French, or any language, is to really master the grammar. 4000 words and half-decent grammar leads to disaster. 4000 words and great grammar leads to impeccable French. When you listen to a native speaker, what do we notice? Is it the huge vocabulary? No. It's four things. First, fluency or an easy flow with little hesitation. Second, impeccable grammar. Third, the extensive use of idioms. Four, the right tone of language for the occasion. Of course, in spoken speech one hears all kinds of things like repetitions and unfinished sentences that are naturally part of oral language. Why is it so hard for all of us learners to reach that level? Is it a question of learning more words? Obviously not. If you believe that the reason you can't speak a language well is because you don't have enough vocabulary, you are barking up the wrong tree. Yes, you need a wide passive and available vocabulary to understand a wide range of sources, but for speaking purposes, you only have to really master a small number of forms. In fact, the real key is the tiny core of around 200 words (in English and French and possibly in other languages) that are the real heart of the spoken language. For example, in French there are four verbs that are in the top 20 words of any frequency list. The four verbs make up around 30% of all verbs in spoken French. How long does it take to learn these four words? A few seconds to read them on a piece of paper but years to use them properly in fluent speech. Edited by s_allard on 01 February 2013 at 4:44pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Betjeman Groupie Germany Joined 6145 days ago 85 posts - 204 votes Speaks: German* | Message 104 of 115 01 February 2013 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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In the end, it's all very simple: The less words you know, the more you have to look up or ask about when
reading, listening, speaking. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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