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How many words do we actually need? | ||
Tags: Number of words | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5383 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes  Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 9 of 115 24 January 2013 at 4:19pm | IP Logged | ||
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Learning a language is a gradual endeavour, but it has always been my contention that the most effective way to learn a language -- at least when the objective is to use the language to communicate orally from the start -- is to focus on the grammar necessary to allow optimal use of one's available vocabulary.
In other words, a smaller vocabulary with good grammar is a lot more efficient that the reverse. Native speakers can also be quite good at simplifying the vocabulary they use with you, but usually fail to avoid certain grammatical structures, let alone to identify the ones you have a hard time understanding. The acquisition of a more developed vocabulary takes time -- a luxury we don't always have --, but it can grow rather comfortably and symbiotically within a context of effective communication. Edited by Arekkusu on 24 January 2013 at 4:20pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Richard Burton Newbie Spain Joined 4334 days ago 34 posts - 64 votes Speaks: Ancient Greek* | Message 10 of 115 24 January 2013 at 4:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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Did you watch Prof. Argüelles video on this topic, in his YT channel?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N47IlqZX_Qs One of the things to remember, it is we d better talk of word-families, you know, we count 1 for wise, wisdom, wisely, unwise, etc, among other reasons because this way we avoid the theoretical difficulty of the what-is-a-word? question. I took the test recommended by Prof Arguelles for English: my.vocabularysize.com He said: -his students, Asian teachers of English get: around 10.000 -average native speaker: 16.000 -native speaker with a degree should have: 20.000 -Prof. Arguelles himself got: 28.000 ...remember, word FAMILIES, actual words are many more I got 23.000, so I was happy. Does anyone know more tests of this kind? I would like to take more, I get some encouragement from it to keep reading and expanding my vocab. I clarify I ve reading English extensively for some 15 years now, so no wonder. I am not up-to-date technically about this thing, frequency-dictionaries, but from what I read, I gather it is proving to be useful in language teaching/learning, you know, to make sure materials focus on core vocabulary first. An English teacher of mine in the old times used to both chortle and get angry with the bloody "goldfish bowl" word coming up in all the beginners books he used :) That is to be avoided. Core vocab first. You can have that in headwords in the Longman Activator for example, and in most defining vocabularies. I find it a bold but tremendously powerful technique to use an adapted monolingual dic from the beginning, because you are forced to read definitions right in the language, which are written normally using a defining vocabulary based on this frequency-lists, to elucubrate what the word would mean, therefore you acquire it fast; very demanding on your brain but a great mental exercice. Some people get one of those X-words most frequent words dictionaries, and simply memorize them, and it appears to be a possible learning technique, a bit weird or autistic though :) Personally I found these dictionaries (or you just can check lists online of the X most frequent words kind of a deal) useful to design a shorthand system that I use similar to Dutton Speed Words, a great fiasco at the time as an IAL but there was some merit to the idea AS LONG AS YOU KEEP IT TO THE HIGHEST FREQUENCY WORDS; then I mixed it with note-system techniques used by interpreters in consecutive interpretation: this way I have my own almost-language which is together a secret language, a note-taking system, a shorthand system, and a consecutive interpretation note-taking system. They have other uses too, it is something worth attention. In general, in my experience, when your 30.000 or so dictionary starts to throw a few non-shows, it is a strong indication you are entering C2 level. I wish I was there in French or German! When you have no use for a dic below 80.000 as typically Longman thick ones for lerners have, it is an indication you can take Cambridge Proficiency Exam (native-like level). EDIT: I checked "elucubrate" which emerged from my unconscious: wrong usage in English :) Let's leave it at "work out the meaning"; dont be impressed by the 28.000, 23.000 marks: Europeans transfer tremendous amounts of knowledge when it comes to obscure vocabulary, unlike the Asian teachers of English. Edited by Richard Burton on 24 January 2013 at 5:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Tilia Diglot Groupie Denmark Joined 4478 days ago 48 posts - 68 votes Speaks: Danish*, English Studies: Spanish | Message 11 of 115 24 January 2013 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | ||
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Interesting concept. I think is a fun challenge, and it may be useful practice for a language learner. If one gets better at communicating with a limited vocabulary(work-around techniques), then perhaps one can start speaking and having meaningful conversations earlier than otherwise. I thought I'd share the web comic xkcd's answer to the "up goer five" challenge: xkcd up goer five :-)
Edited by Tilia on 26 January 2013 at 1:29pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tastyonions Triglot Senior Member United States goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4667 days ago 1044 posts - 1823 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 12 of 115 24 January 2013 at 6:33pm | IP Logged | ||
You know, I think I agree with this. Collection of words is possibly the simplest part of the whole language learning process (and often an enjoyable one, I find). The difficult part -- for me, anyway -- is getting used to a different logic of expression and constructions, and trying to internalize them / make them automatic for my own use. Edited by tastyonions on 24 January 2013 at 6:35pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Chris Ford Groupie United States Joined 4745 days ago 65 posts - 101 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Portuguese | Message 13 of 115 24 January 2013 at 7:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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You know, as soon as I saw the thread title I wanted to come in here and post the Up Goer Five comic (http://xkcd.com/1133/) and I was kind of disappointed to see that that's what the thread was already about. I really think the Up Goer Five is not only related to language learning, but really the concept is exactly the same as learning to speak a language. I can't even count the number of times when I didn't know the exact work for an occupation or a location, and I said "a person whose job is to..." or "that place where people go when they..." If you're not interested in actually speaking then it's obviously less applicable because you would have time to look up the exact word, but otherwise it's the same skillset. I do think this constant need for mental and linguistic gymnastics improves my ability to simplify concepts in English as well, as I'm already used to doing so in another language, where I'm the simpleton. =P
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4670 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 14 of 115 24 January 2013 at 8:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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It's not about the number of words.
All essay writing guides say ''Your grade will be better if you avoid overused words...'' So, if you use promulgate instead of promote, novel instead of new, sizzling instead of hot and so on, your writing style will be better, so they say. Many Northern Europeans speak great English, with virtually no accent, but they rely too much on overused words (we can call it: Basic English vocabulary-wise). On the other hand, when I listen to educated Indians, the accent is obvious, sometimes very strong, but their choice of words, including phrasal verbs and idioms many Europeans shy from, is very native-like. There's also one issue that needs to me mentioned, the issue of ''COLLOCATIONS'', for example in English TALL BUILDINGS sounds much more natural than HIGH BUILDINGS; QUITE GOOD and QUITE THE BEST are grammatical, while QUITE BETTER is not. Edited by Medulin on 24 January 2013 at 9:04pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| espejismo Diglot Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5053 days ago 498 posts - 905 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Spanish, Greek, Azerbaijani | Message 15 of 115 24 January 2013 at 9:13pm | IP Logged | ||
What's wrong with "quite better"? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s0fist Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5048 days ago 260 posts - 445 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Sign Language, German, Spanish, French | Message 16 of 115 24 January 2013 at 10:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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This is certainly a great thought experiment, and perhaps it could be made into a viable, genuinely interesting experiment for someone working in linguistics or a related field.
However, I think adopting this mindview for yourself would be detrimental to any aspiring polyglot. And polyglot wanna-be is a title most of us here wear proudly. Knowing 1 more word for a monolingual speaker, is just that: conveniency. Knowing 1 more word for a polyglot opens up a whole slew of words not just in your native language, but in all languages that share vocabulary with it, meaning all languages in same family and even other language families, given how much assimilation there is. Knowing 1 more word for a polyglot, allows them to make better lexical, morphological, and grammatical connections both intuitively and logically, within all the languages they study. Connections one might never have made if they hadn't gone past the basics. In sum, I think it's a great idea to start studying a language with the core vocabulary, especially if you want to see tangible results ever faster. However, I think any aspiring polyglot would be remiss in stopping there. So if you ever encounter a word you don't know, in any language, don't skip over it thinking that you'll see it again if it matters, instead get out your dictionary and make a note of the word. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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