Languages that you feel obligated... (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Languages that you feel obligated...
Tags: Reasons for study
Share with: Delicious Digg reddit Facebook StumbleUpon
Language Learning Forum : General discussion

58 messages over 8 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next >>

Juаn
Senior Member
Colombia
Joined 5346 days ago
727 posts - 1830 votes

Speaks: Spanish*

Message 41 of 58

01 February 2013 at 10:10pm | IP Logged

The Riddler, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but for someone claiming Spanish speakers are uneducated you're making a display of ignorance yourself.

Spanish is one the most cultivated languages in the world if we base our appraisal on the longevity, richness and quality of their literary traditions. With the exception of Italian, no other language which is still in use as a vernacular today boasts a more ancient literary canon. Back when England was a backwater Spain ruled half of Europe and its writers cast lines of immortal beauty. Molded by a long history and enriched by much diversity, Spanish is a greatly refined language capable of extraordinary expression.

This notion of Spanish as some sort of poor man's language comes of course from North Americans lacking a sense of history and ignorant of the world of culture and letters, for whom the names of Quevedo, Góngora, Gracián, Lope de Vega, Calderón de la Barca, Cadalso, Bécquer... Ortega y Gasset, Carlos Fuentes, Vargas Llosa or Borges are unknown.

With regards to business -which unlike culture instantly kindles the interest of the average North American- according to GDP Spanish is the third most important language in the world after English and Chinese, and in terms of growth Peru, Chile, Colombia and Mexico represent some of the most attractive destinations for investment and trade.

None of this means of course that anyone must learn or appreciate any given language, but they would be mistaken to ascribe qualities to it that are rather a reflection of their own limitations.
8 persons have voted this message useful

sillygoose1
Tetraglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4637 days ago
566 posts - 814 votes

Speaks: English*, Italian, Spanish, French
Studies: German, Latin

Message 42 of 58

01 February 2013 at 10:54pm | IP Logged

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lingua_francas#Spanish
2 persons have voted this message useful

The Riddler
Triglot
Newbie
United States
Joined 4338 days ago
12 posts - 16 votes
Speaks: English*, Hindi, Telugu
Studies: French, German

Message 43 of 58

02 February 2013 at 3:06am | IP Logged

Presidio wrote:

The Riddler wrote:

Yes, you won't "need" Chinese, German, Russian etc. when working in an
international environment or business, but it would CERTAINLY help if you did know
them. It helps in building inter-personal relationships and trust with people whose
native language isn't English.

-- True. Same with Spanish.
Perhaps moreso with Spanish within the U.S. since we have several trading partners from
Spanish-speaking countries (my sister's PT Cruiser was built at a Crysler plant in
Mexico). And a very large portion of consumers within our own country (compared to
those other languages) have Spanish as their native tongue.

The Riddler wrote:

All these languages do seem to shrink in usefulness when
compared to English, but still much more useful than Spanish, at least where the money
lies. How many Chinese IT guys have we seen? How many German engineers? How many
Russian businessmen? And against that, how many Spanish people in those same circles?

-- If you are talking about actual end-users, we interact with far more Spanish
speakers that Chinese, Russian, Arabic, German, etc. etc. etc.

In most cases companies doing ongoing support and logistic services overseas actually
train native personnel in that country to do the service. It is much more efficient,
cost effective, and greatly reduces problems/errors caused by linguistic differences.

On higher level interaction it is - for better or worse - exactly what I said.
The companies we deal with overseas already have a large pool of people fluent
in English or, on a much, much smaller scale, we use license interpreting services.

The Riddler wrote:

Maybe blue-collar wasn't the right way of putting it. What I meant was that a lot of
these jobs you mentioned seem to have lower compensation in general, so I don't see how
attractive it would be to learn an entire language just to have more opportunities in
that particular line of work, like, troubleshooting internet connections, filling in
prescriptions etc.

-- Those "lower compensation" jobs you speak of are not permanent "lower compensation."
They are entry level positions.
When I left the military after learning German and being a full-time Russian
interpreter for them, I took a job on a support desk troubleshooting computer issues.
Pay was lousy to start, but the company I worked for supported mainly English speakers,
but also computer users in Mexico, two countries in Europe and one in the Middle East.

Neither my Russian or German helped at all but we had a number of Spanish and English
speakers who handled the lion's share of our calls. The rest of the time we either had
in-house interpreters that we went through or organizations such as 'Propio' that
provide three-way telephonic interpreting services.

But three years later I was a supervisor. A little over three years after that I
became a manager, at four times my starting salary.

I now oversee three different departments, one is a support desk, and my salary is even
larger. And it all began by taking that 'entry level' position.

This is important so I will capitalize it:
IF I HAD SPOKEN Spanish FROM THE FIRST DAY I STARTED, I WOULD BE EVEN FURTHER UP THE
LADDER WITHIN MY ORGANIZATION RIGHT NOW. The other two languages I spoke didn't help me
a single solitary bit.

The Riddler wrote:

Yes, those types of jobs will require Spanish IN THE FUTURE, but is
that really the best argument there is for learning Spanish to widen career
opportunities? Possibly even Chinese, though infinitely harder to learn for an English
speaker, will probably have more ROI.

-- Actually, there is a huge demand for Spanish speakers RIGHT NOW.
Check job listings in your local paper or online. Scores will point out that Spanish
fluency is desired and it will cause you to have a base salary higher than those who
work in the same job without it. If you check you will see there is also a huge
shortage of Spanish speaking interpreters in the mnedical and legal field.

And as far as your "IN THE FUTURE" statement goes, that is no more than a year or 18
months. That means that a person starting to learn the language NOW - if they truly
commit to it - may have the fluency required when the need is in full swing.
Try that with Chinese...

The Riddler wrote:

I am quite aware that in the
places where Spanish is required (like lawyer's offices and courtroom usage, you seem
to mention that a lot for some reason, as if Spanish-only speakers would need courts
and lawyers a lot more than other people),

-- Unbelievable.
Here, allow me educate you:

Let's take a quick look foreign language interpeter usage in just the U.S. District
courts alone, shall we:

YEAR        Spanish        TOTAL (Spanish and all other languages combined)

2000        179,271        190,127
2001        171,331        181,303
2002        163,344        174,405
2003        176,704        189,044
2004        212,223        223,996
2005        214,355        227,416

http://www.floridabar.org/DIVCOM/JN/JNJournal01.nsf/Author/0
89C9FC08403FDF885257471005ECF98

In many states, including states like CA, FL, AZ, TX where Hispanic populations are
very high, the percentage of Spanish interpreters needed compared to other languages is
even higher.

Or didn't you know...
- Other than English, Spanish is the most spoken language in the U.S. - by far.

- The Hispanic population in the U.S. has the largest portion of any group that is not
fluent in English.

- More Spanish interpreters were required in U.S. courts in the last year tham Chinese,
French and German interpreters - COMBINED.

- The U.S. Dept. of Justice reports a shortage of qualified Spanish court interpreters
throughout the United States.

- With the continued exponential growth of Spanish speakers in the U.S., the need for
Spanish court and hospital interpreters will continue to outweigh ALL OTHER
LANGUAGES...by far.

And that doesn't even take into account the need for Spanish speakers in Hospitals,
doctors offices, clinics, pharmacies, etc. combined to other languages.

Yes, there is a need for other languages for hospital and court interpreting services.
But they are by far overshadowed by the current (and obviously future) need for Spanish
interpreters.

So Russian and German didn't help you and Spanish did. That's just you. Doesn't
necessarily imply anything about the wider job market. "About me", I got a job at
Google with an option to relocate to Switzerland in a few years (their office in
Zurich), which wont be possible without German, or even French since there's the
French-speaking part close by. I'm interning at Apple this summer in California. The
guy who I talked to at my college career fair was French and he told me Spanish would
be useful to live in California in general as most of the people there are now Spanish
anyway. But in the company and in Cupertino which is one of the richest and most
educated towns in the nation (consequently barely 4% of the town is Hispanic compared
to almost 40% for the state as a whole), any language other than English? Chinese and
French, believe it or not. So, you have your views and I have mine of what constitutes
a LUCRATIVE career and a sophisticated language. Let's follow what Chris Bord said a
few posts above and leave it at that.

By the way, I was being sarcastic when I said "as if they would need more courts...." I
know perfectly well that they are more in need of legal services than other classes of
people in America.
1 person has voted this message useful

Presidio
Triglot
Newbie
United States
Joined 4582 days ago
39 posts - 150 votes

Speaks: English*, Russian, German
Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Gulf)

Message 44 of 58

02 February 2013 at 5:25am | IP Logged

The Riddler wrote:

By the way, I was being sarcastic when I said "as if they would need more courts...." I
know perfectly well that they are more in need of legal services than other classes of
people in America.

-- "are more in need of legal services than other classes of people in America?"
See, there is proof right there of progress in America.
Apparently they now have Wi-Fi at Ku Klux Klan rallies.

Juan, why did you have to do that?
We have just finished pointing how narrow minded and elitist some of Riddler's comments are when suddenly you have to come along and outdo him.

Juаn wrote:

Spanish is one the most cultivated languages in the world if we base our appraisal on the longevity, richness and quality of their literary traditions. With the exception of Italian, no other language which is still in use as a vernacular today boasts a more ancient literary canon.

-- There were great literary works and impressive scientific advances coming out of Greece, China, Japan, India, and (what was then) Persia long before Spain was unified in the early 1500s.

Juаn wrote:

Back when England was a backwater Spain ruled half of Europe and its writers cast lines of immortal beauty. Molded by a long history and enriched by much diversity, Spanish is a greatly refined language capable of extraordinary expression.

-- Are you sure you want to go there? That "backwater" comment would also apply to Spain during the years when Greece, Persia, China, Japan and India were making great literary and scientific contributions.

And if you were took look at Spain's status within Europe today - with the upheaval and massive financial problems they are forced to beg the EU to help them with...

Juаn wrote:

This notion of Spanish as some sort of poor man's language comes of course from North Americans lacking a sense of history and ignorant of the world of culture and letters, for whom the names of Quevedo, Góngora, Gracián, Lope de Vega, Calderón de la Barca, Cadalso, Bécquer... Ortega y Gasset, Carlos Fuentes, Vargas Llosa or Borges are unknown.

-- First off, you seem to miss the fact that Mexicans are also "North Americans."
Your unsupported insults encompass Mexico as well then, do they not?

See, with comments like "North Americans lacking a sense of history and ignorance of the world of culture..." you make Riddler sound like the Dalai Lama.

And as far as the great Spanish/Hispanic authors and artists you listed, I must tell you that in my 18 or so trips throughout Mexico I am just as convinced that the vast, vast majority of Mexicans would be completely ignorant to the works of Shakespeare, Milton, Chaucer, Keats, Yeats, Kipling, T.S. Elliot, Milton, Tennyson, Poe, Frost, Byron, Shelley, Wilde, Dickinson, Browning, Plath, Mark Twain, etc. etc. etc.
Or even the more recent such as Arthur Conan Doyle, George Orwell, C.S. Lewis, Tolkein, Rowling, Ludlum, Grishing, etc.

Gosh, this name dropping in order to be condescending sure if fun. Thanks for the idea.

And as far as your comment, "This notion of Spanish as some sort of poor man's language" you can see perhaps where the idea - wrong as it is - comes from:

The conditions of poverty in Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, and even Mexico itself have caused millions of people from those countries to flee the living conditions of their countriesand come to the United States to try to find work to suppor their families.

These millions of people are found in cities all over the United States and in most cases the only first-hand contact most Americans will have with native Spanish speakers.

These American only know that they are here illegally, and hundreds of millons of U.S. taxpayer dollars a year go to providing assistance to many of them.

You can perhaps be a bit more understanding as to where that misconception then comes from, no?

5 persons have voted this message useful

Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 5057 days ago
2096 posts - 2972 votes

Speaks: Russian*

Message 45 of 58

02 February 2013 at 6:49am | IP Logged

There are a lot of native speakers of other languages with a good level of English in the
US, aren't there? Why can't they be hired?
1 person has voted this message useful

The Riddler
Triglot
Newbie
United States
Joined 4338 days ago
12 posts - 16 votes
Speaks: English*, Hindi, Telugu
Studies: French, German

Message 46 of 58

02 February 2013 at 7:00am | IP Logged

Presidio wrote:

The Riddler wrote:

By the way, I was being sarcastic when I said "as if they would need more courts...." I
know perfectly well that they are more in need of legal services than other classes of
people in America.

-- "are more in need of legal services than other classes of people in America?"
See, there is proof right there of progress in America.
Apparently they now have Wi-Fi at Ku Klux Klan rallies.

Hmmm.. if I disagreed with you and said they don't need more courts and what not, you
would brandish a set of statistics at me, proving the contrary. On the other hand, if I
actually agree with you and say they do need more such services than other
(classes/races/.... take your pick) in America, that doesn't seem to sit too well with
you either. Okaaay...
1 person has voted this message useful

Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 7157 days ago
4228 posts - 8259 votes

20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

Message 47 of 58

02 February 2013 at 7:54am | IP Logged

vvaamim wrote:

Are there any languages that you guys feel obligated to learn?

Yes. At the moment I feel obligated to learn Finnish, Hungarian, Polish and Slovak to fluency, and review just enough of my knowledge of BCMS/SC so that I can make the most of a visit to the former Yugoslavia that's planned for this year.

Next question!

(As for this rather silly (to me) digression over the perceived obligation/benefit to learn German, Mandarin or Spanish in the USA, I say that you would be even better off in joining me or tarvos by studying Northern Saami or Breton respectively. None of German, Mandarin or Spanish deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as those other two languages. :-P)
1 person has voted this message useful

Fuenf_Katzen
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
notjustajd.wordpress
Joined 4370 days ago
337 posts - 476 votes

Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Polish, Ukrainian, Afrikaans

Message 48 of 58

02 February 2013 at 10:15pm | IP Logged

Just from my own experience job searching recently, in my field (law) many assistant type positions are either having Spanish knowledge as a hiring advantage, or outright requiring it. This is starting to happen for attorney positions as well in all areas of the law (personal injury, criminal, family, disability, etc.). I don't even live in an area with an extremely high concentration of native Spanish speakers, so I imagine in other states, Spanish is a required ability for some of those positions. Now, I would certainly argue whether the legal field is truly "lucrative," but that's a whole different subject! I can say that as an attorney, the only time I've been able to use my German professionally is through a document review job, and those types of opportunities don't necessarily come up often. For whatever it's worth, yes, German does in general pay more than Spanish, mostly due to the fact that there are fewer German speaking attorneys in the US than Spanish speaking ones, and the prices reflect that.

Whether or not Spanish speaking jobs pay more, the reality at least in my field is that Spanish may not be the difference between a higher or lower paying job; it could mean the difference between being employed and being unemployed.

1 person has voted this message useful

This discussion contains 58 messages over 8 pages: << Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next >>

Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum

This page was generated in 7.5000 seconds.