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Monty Says Something in Welsh | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 1 of 76 15 August 2013 at 3:25am | IP Logged | ||
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I've had enough of sitting on the Welsh fence, and have decided to take the plunge after all. I probably count as a false
beginner, although it's probably over 30 years since I last attempted to study it with any seriousness, although I've had small reminders of it from time to time since then. Although there is lots of good stuff on the BBC website, I have decided I rather like this site: SSIW Say something in Welsh. Course 1 is free, and includes at least 26 lessons plus bonus material. There is also a forum, and (as mentioned elsewhere) "Bootcamps" from time to time that one can sign up for. These are immersion weeks in Wales, for what seems to be a modest cost. In order to access courses 2 and 3, you have to become a paying member, paying a monthly fee, which does not look excessive. They also encourage things like Skype exchanges and other activities. I've just worked through lesson 1 (32 minutes) and dabbled with some of the bonus vocab material. One interesting thing is that it is all spoken. No writing and no reading. In that respect it is a little like Michel Thomas. You can choose a North Wales or South Wales version. I've chosen North, because my connections (such as they are) are with North Wales, although I actually live a bit nearer South Wales. It's interesting, because traditional courses, such as the one I did with Radio Wales many years ago, tended to concentrate on South Wales Welsh, and they tended to minimise any differences with North Wales Welsh. I notice that the modern BBC course also offer North and South Versions. One difference between this and MT is that there are 2 teachers, 1 male and 1 female (same on the S. Wales course). I believe there are some fairly small differences in vocab and grammar between North and South, and certainly a difference in accent, and you can hear this difference in their English as well. The method used, just like Michel Thomas, certainly is effective in getting you to speak from day 1, and seems to build sentences in a similar manner, although not yet as long as the ones in MT. Not being able to see words written can be slightly frustrating sometimes. I can work out how most words would be spelled, but a few others have escaped me. But, we'll see how it goes. Looking on the forum, some people have asked about this, and the message about not reading and writing at first is emphasised several times, so I will stick to it for now. There is some automatic revision built into the lessons, so I am not going to explicitly revise lessons for now. Since I'm planning to carry on with Danish and German in parallel, I'll limit myself for now with just one lesson per day, not repeated, although I might listen to some bonus material as well. There are 10 vocab sections in addition to the 26 lessons and I'm not 100% sure where they fit in with the lessons. I'll listen to one now and again I think, until I hear instructions to the contrary. I think they say it's ok to read and maybe write stuff down after you've done course 1, as by then, you will be able to build on that foundation, and your accent should be pretty sound. The danger (they say) with beginners writing down from day 1 is that they tend to then think of it with an English pronunciation. Of the 2 teachers, the man is a 2nd language Welsh speaker (he learned as an adult) and the woman is a Welsh first language speaker (she learned as a child). (They happen to be man and wife). 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 2 of 76 15 August 2013 at 3:35am | IP Logged | ||
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Since it's not a writing or reading-based course, I don't necessarily know how all the
words I'm learning are spelled, so I won't be writing much Welsh here, at least for now. Lesson 1 introduced quite a few basic verbs such as speaking, saying, liking, moving, staying, knowing, being able, wanting, in the 1st person, and 2nd person familiar, also in the negative. You are told the Welsh for a word or phrase, he repeats the English, you say back the Welsh, she repeats the Welsh to confirm. There is time for you to say it a few times if you want, and you can use pause of course. Compound verbs were introduced, e.g "I want to know" "I want to speak Welsh" "I want to go". These are fairly simple to form and can be strung together if appropriate. There is also a lot of repetition. Although grammatic terms are not used (so far, anyway), I can hear that some mutations have been introduced, e.g. "dim" became "ddim" (for "not") in some sentences, but these were just slipped in and used without explanation. I assume that we just get used to them in the right place and hopefully learn them naturally. Another grammatical point that was slipped in without explanation is that with the verb "to want", it loses the normal "yn" marker in forming the present tense. We are advised not to worry about it, and just use it and it will soon be 2nd nature, which is fair enough. Edited by montmorency on 20 August 2013 at 2:12am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 3 of 76 20 August 2013 at 2:27am | IP Logged | ||
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I got sidetracked because of visitors (who were very welcome, but it's nice to be back
in the language saddle). Had to disobey my own "rule" about 1 lesson per day in order to catch up a bit, and am now on lesson 6.1 (lesson 6 is in 3 parts). I will also have to go back on what I said about not revising, since I will definitely have to go back and listen to some previous lessons once or twice. This is apparently perfectly natural. Lesson 1 starts slowly, but the lessons soon build up in intensity, and it's surprising what they pack into 30 minutes or so. The tutors are very active on the forum (something you don't get with Michel Thomas) as well as having put in a fantastic amount of work into the courses themselves. They deserve to succeed and I really hope they do. Lots of students have reported doing very well (these courses seem to have been going several years) and it's heartening to read the success stories on the forum. The thought behind SSiW seems very compatible with the ideas behind HTLAL ... i.e. motivated self-learning, with the guidance of a well designed course to begin with, and many HTLALers have enjoyed using Michel Thomas, with which this is very compatible with. (Oops: Department of Redundancy Department at work here!) Some HTLALers may not go along 100% with the "no writing, no reading" rule, and I've found that hard myself, but I've put my natural feelings to one side, and am going along with it 100% as long as I can. In fact, there are written lesson guides that it's ok to look at at the end of the lesson, which list the words used, but I'm ignoring those for now. That would offer too much temptation to "cheat". (I know myself well enough). Anyway, by lesson 6, we've already covered the past and future tenses, at least in a simple way, and more verbs and a few adjectives are gradually being introduced. It's getting late here, so nos da! Edited by montmorency on 20 August 2013 at 2:29am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 4 of 76 20 August 2013 at 1:26pm | IP Logged | ||
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Seeing a comment about accents in another thread reminded me: I have always quite liked
imitating the Welsh accent (in English), although my wife (who lived in North Wales for 5 years or so as a child) says I always do a South Wales accent, which is probably true, since my influences probably came from hearing it on the BBC, probably ultimately from BBC Wales which is based in Cardiff. Anyway, I have found that if I think (in English) in a Welsh accent or talk to myself in a Welsh accent, it is then easier to pronounce actual Welsh closer to what I hear on the lessons from the native speakers. For example, the "r" in a Welsh accent tends to be more rhotic than the usual southern English accent, and the "r" in Welsh is very rhotic, so it's a shorter step from Welsh- accented English to actual Welsh than it would be from my usual southern English. Perhaps it is similar thinking that causes our friend Viktor D Huliganov, aka Uncle Davey James to speak English in a Russian accent on his Russian language teaching videos. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 5 of 76 20 August 2013 at 2:48pm | IP Logged | ||
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Interesting paper here on the SSiW site:
Crossing the Bridge I think it's a few years old, but the ideas are probably still valid, and will ring bells for HTLALers. Someone writing on the SSiW forum reminded me of another difference between the SSiW method and Michel Thomas: 1. I'd already noted that there are 2 teachers, 1 male, 1 female 2. However, there are also no students. You are the only student. The students on MT have some plus points, but also some minus points. You can get confused by their poor pronunciation. You can also get impatient when they just don't seem to get it. Perhaps worst though is the feeling that you have to compete with them in your speed in picking up the language. With SSiW you go at your own pace, provided you use the pause button, and / or repeat the lessons as necessary. There is no shame in having to repeat the lessons, and this is regarded as quite normal. On the other hand, they do say you shouldn't let yourself get bogged down in a loop, and sometimes it's just better to move on. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 6 of 76 22 August 2013 at 12:32am | IP Logged | ||
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Bit too knackered to do a proper lesson today. Will just listen to some Radio Cymru and
let it wash over me. I used to do that a lot with German (and once upon a time French). However, from the SSiW, I have learned a few words. Not from the course, so OK to write down here I think: wedi gobsmac = gobsmacked dw i wedi gobsmac = I'm gobsmacked (no "'n" required after the "i"). I guess that is very colloquial, as there seems to be a more correct version: cegwrth = gobsmacked. There is also: "wrth fy modd" = chuffed (colloquial for "very pleased"). (For non-native English speakers, "gob" is a rather rude word for mouth. Which reminds me of a Welsh phrase I got from my wife. Not sure about spelling, but: "cau di geg" (sounds like: "Kye dee gegg") = shut your mouth / gob / trap Edited by montmorency on 22 August 2013 at 12:35am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 7 of 76 23 August 2013 at 2:32am | IP Logged | ||
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I made the mistake of trying to do too many lessons in one day to make up for missed
days, and I've realised that's a mistake with this course. It's a bit too concentrated. I realise I need to take it more slowly, and if necessary, break up the lesson into say, 10 minute chunks (or less) and take a break between them, and make full use of the pause button as well (just as you are supposed to with Michel Thomas). I was trying to make a virtue out of not using the pause button. I think that's ok when you are finding the stuff easy (perhaps after several repetitions or you happen to know it), but when it's all new and strange, it's better to pause and let it sink in. Or that's what I'm finding now, and it's working better. I will still need to repeat lessons, but maybe not so often. Taking it slowly in the 1st place (and in chunks), means that more seems to sink in. It's possible that your mind processes it somewhat during the breaks, so it's not completely dead time, and you also feel a bit more relaxed. Lesson 6.1 is quite dense. We learn another way of expressing the future ("I will ....etc" instead of "I am going to ...etc" (using "mynd i"). I remember what the "I will" is, but I'm not sure how to spell it, so I won't write it! We are not supposed to worry about that at this stage, and that's ok with me. ("mynd" is easy though). 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Tahl Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4287 days ago 26 posts - 44 votes Speaks: English*, Welsh Studies: Spanish, Finnish | Message 8 of 76 23 August 2013 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | ||
That's my experience, too. I think it's very worthwhile to pause to make sure that you, yourself, really *can* produce the Welsh being requested. And when the sentences get complex -- by Course 2 you'll be doing sentences that are much more elaborate than anything I've encountered in Pimsleur Spanish 1 & 2 or Michel Thomas Spanish 1 -- I can't imagine coping without the pause button. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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