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Monty Says Something in Welsh | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 49 of 76 15 November 2013 at 8:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Thanks eyðimörk. Come to think, even American (and sometimes British) English does this
sort of thing, e.g. the "tt" in "little", softening to "dd" -> "liddle". 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4843 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 50 of 76 15 November 2013 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
Mutations stem from certain phonological features of Proto-Celtic. The words which today trigger mutations used to have certain endings in Proto-Celtic which affected the pronunciation of the initial sound of the next word. As time passed by, these endings disappeared due to phonological change, but the pronunciation of the initial sound was kept, so mutations were invented. Today, there seems to be no logical system behind mutations, but the reason why a certain word triggers mutation is the ending it had in Proto-Celtic. I can only give examples for Irish, but I guess it's similar in Welsh. Lenition appears after a word which had a vocalic ending, while eclipsis is triggered by words which had a nasal consonant as ending. That explains the insane Irish counting system, where the numbers from 1 to 6 trigger lenition while 7-10 trigger eclipsis. I believe there are similar phenomena in Welsh (I remember something about the number 5), but I don't know about Breton. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| eyðimörk Triglot Senior Member France goo.gl/aT4FY7 Joined 4098 days ago 490 posts - 1158 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French Studies: Breton, Italian | Message 51 of 76 15 November 2013 at 11:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
That's very interesting! Thank you for that! It doesn't explain WHY there are mutations, though, only at what time they developed* and why they follow certain words and not others.
In Breton number 2 triggers lenition and numbers 3, 4, and 9 trigger a spirant mutation, so there are certainly similarities there. Gaelic, as I recall, mutates after 1 and 2... maybe there were more? There are no doubt people here who've studied the language to a much greater extent and much more recently than I have, who might be able to enlighten us. * which is presumably why many are similar across the board — both Gaelic and Breton, for example, mutate after "a" and "ro" (Gaelic) or "re" (Breton), as well as after a negative particle, from what little I recall from Gaelic class. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 52 of 76 16 November 2013 at 12:29am | IP Logged | |||||
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About the spirant mutation:
It is a common phonological process that sounds weaken in intervocalic positions. In Korean, voicing is not distinctive (aspiration is) but in intervocalic position stops become voiced (k/t/p/ch become b/d/g/j). In Dutch, intervocalic d in words is eliminated in speech and only retained in old archaic texts (weder = weer, veder = veer, neder = neer) In other languages consonants lenite even further to fricatives (this is the spirant mutation in Breton as well with k becoming c'h, p becoming f and t becoming z, although the latter is strange because it somehow also activates voicing - but I think originally t became a th sound, a dental fricative, but since Breton doesn't use those it turned to a z somehow (although you would expect an s). B, d, g can similarly lenite to v, voiced th, and voiced /x/. I think Spanish has this under certain circumstances. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6908 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 53 of 76 16 November 2013 at 1:02am | IP Logged | |||||
Yeah, that's how I pronounce the sounds in intervocalic positions. Maybe not a v for b, but definitely voiced /th/ and /x/. It's easier, and that's why we have assimilation, mutations etc. The other day, I realized that I lenited m- in my native Swedish. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 54 of 76 16 November 2013 at 11:36am | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't think the sound is /v/ in Spanish but an approximant instead. But it goes in that
direction. Edited by tarvos on 16 November 2013 at 11:37am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4843 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 55 of 76 16 November 2013 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | |||||
As tarvos pointed out, the intervocalic consonants turned from stops into fricatives, so that's the reason why lenition evolved. It was just a phonological feature of Proto-Celtic. Similarly, a nasal consonant could affect the following sound and "eclipse" it. When the nasal consonant was lost, only the eclipsed sound remained. By the way, the accurate symbol for the fricative b in Spanish is /β/. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| eyðimörk Triglot Senior Member France goo.gl/aT4FY7 Joined 4098 days ago 490 posts - 1158 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French Studies: Breton, Italian | Message 56 of 76 16 November 2013 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
That's very fascinating. It still deals only with the hows and not the whys. I don't expect you (or anyone) to know the whys (since we're already tracing the hows to a theoretical proto-language). I'm just saying that "it's a feature of the language" or "there is lenition because there was lenition" is a how and not a why. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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