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Reducing Self-Study Method Abandonment | ||
Tags: Burn-out | Self-Study | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5206 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 41 of 139 28 August 2013 at 1:10pm | IP Logged | ||
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I can't say I've ever used a course that felt "dumbed down". I found Michel Thomas and Pimsleur quite demanding, especially when I tried the Russian ones, for which I had to repeat a lot of the lessons and still struggled. Assimil, even in the supposedly easier newer ones, throws a lot of language at the learner all at once and it can be hard to keep up. Even the textbooks and exercises in my high school French class seemed to be on the difficult side, although the teachers were somewhat selective and picked and chose which pages and exercises we worked through as opposed to going through the whole thing.
I did find Pimsleur Italian too easy and slow and gave up on it after the first unit, but that's because at the beginner level Italian is pretty similar to French, which I knew quite well, and the course is mostly aimed at people who only speak English. Overall I just don't see "dumbed down" courses as a problem for anyone other than very serious and experienced learners. I do think that intermediate/advanced courses with a specific focus are great and I'd like to see more of them; I've found that even at intermediate/advanced level, native materials and conversation aren't enough and a bit of courses/studying can really help me to keep progressing efficiently. As an example, I love the Assimil format and I think their basic courses are great, but the advanced ones try to cover too much ground too quickly and so aren't as useful. It would be great to see a full "Assimil intermediate" course that focuses on conversational language, like the first half of a Using/Perfectionnement course, and perhaps another one after that that goes into the more specialised topics typical of the second half like literature and politics. I know this probably isn't realistic, since advanced material is already a very small market compared to beginner courses, but... in an ideal world! At least for the mainstream languages, it seems that beginner material has been done to death, pretty much every possible permutation has been made, and I don't see how it could be done any better than it currently is. Even all the fancy modern software/web-based resources don't seem to have delivered any improvement over the likes of Michel Thomas/Assimil/FSI. Meanwhile, there's lots of scope for better intermediate and advanced materials. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5008 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 42 of 139 28 August 2013 at 2:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think the way classes and teachers use textbook is completely different. Even though I have noticed there is far too high % of textbooks that are used only for selected pieces and students are buried under piles of copies from various other textbooks and workbooks (or are required to buy them for other pieces as well. Few things are as wasted as money spent on textbook from which you need only ten pages.). I nearly feel like it is the intention of the publisher to sell not only textbooks and workbooks but as well grammars, vocabularies and so on. The publishers claim to care about reserch, feedback, experience of techers and students every time they make a new generation of textbooks but it doesn't look so. As I was unlucky to be learning French for so long and restart several times in various schools, I saw exactly the same mistakes repeated in every series of courses used(Panorama, Connexions, Alter Ego, Édito-even though the last one was better than the others). And those were mistakes both teachers and students disliked.
I love the thematic books as well. Having a vocabulary builder and a grammar actually gives me kind of modular approach while having native materials as my main source. The trouble is when you need to find such thematic books as well for writing or for speaking, especially when you are preparing for an exam or for a job. The exam preparation book may or may not be the solution and many books focusing on the active skills (with explanations of the proper, formal genres of writing, commonly used expressions, common mistakes, exercises pushing you the right direction) are actually quite expensive in comparison with many other course books. And the advanced material is a trouble to find and expensive, I agree. And there aren't even the basic thematic books for the smaller languages!
It is partially true and it would be, in my opinion, ideal for most learners to start using native material of their choice as soon as possible while continuing and finishing the textbook at any pace they find comfortable. I believe the last few chapters of a textbook still have a lot to give you (as I believe a good explanation and examples can speed up the learning process) and passing on the opportunity is a waste, in my opinion. And I think the intermediate and advanced materials (textbooks, grammar workbooks) can play an awesome role during the later stages of learning or maintenance. For example, it is easy to transform small one time mistake into a bad habit. It has happened to me in all my languages (once even in my native Czech) and even my English could do with a small grammar review of some points. And I have been spending hours a day in English. I have been reading for years, listening to tv shows or youtube videos of various kind, writing every day! And then, out of the blue, I find something that doesn't seem right in my post, and the post before and the next one. So, even people with very advanced skills (since I believe all my skills except for speaking are C2) can do with autocorrection and reference/practice. So, if publishers made more advanced material (and relevant, such as common mistakes, details of grammar, ways to make your speech sound better and so on), that would be great. All the things based on computers, websites, tablets and so on are still far from replacing the "old" stuff. The example of Assimil not making vinyl anymore isn't exact. They just moved the same thing to the next way to sell it. So, if Assimil starts to sell lessons one by one on itunes, amazon and their own store, that will be a proper analogy. But the rest isn't so easy. For example: several textbooks already have an ipad version. I was very disappointed to see the worbooks are just scanned paper. It is a wasted opportunity and I doubt many people will buy such a lazily made product. Yes, you can carry around several such workbooks in just the tablet. But you still need a paper and pen to use it! It is actually even worse than the paper version because you can write directly in the paper book. Some others are already trying to make interactive exercises but it will take time before they catch the bugs and, more importantly, find out it might be worth it to make interactive exercises that aren't useless. Because, from what I've seen, mostly the least demanding and teaching kinds of exercises are being transfered to the interactive tablet version. There are multiple choices. There are fill the gaps (even though sometimes they do more harm than good as you are to put L2 words in English sentences). So, while I believe the new media are an awesome opportunity and will play a major part in future, I believe we are still not there by far. And we won't be in the next five years or so. At least. Most publishers didn't even make the textbook linked with the audio! No, you cannot just click on the dialog or exercise and hear what you need. You need to switch to the audio part (often another awesome in app purchase. You wouldn't believe how much I prefer one time payments), than find the audio you need. Don't get me wrong. Some publishers are already walking (or crawling) in the right direction. And some products already have their uses, at least as something to do with the language when travelling. But if I were you (no matter which you of those reading this), I would always look carefully at all the demo material or overviews and screenshots at the publisher website. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5429 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 43 of 139 28 August 2013 at 4:04pm | IP Logged | ||
It's true that there seems to be an endless supply of beginner materials and a dearth of intermediate/advanced products. This is because the vast majority of people are no longer interested. It is also true that outside of vocabulary most languages have evolved little in the last 50 years. Right now I am looking at the the 1975 edition of Commonsense Grammar and Style by Robert E. Morsberger. Although the examples are sometimes outdated, the contents are just as relevant today as 38 years ago. The same could be said for most teach yourself materials. I have materials from the 60s, before I was born, that I could still use today. Insofar as books are concerned, what publishers and authors do is update the vocabulary and the graphic design and maybe the title a bit. And voilà, you have a new book or method. Assimil is a case in point. On the other hand, the really interesting developments are in the area of interactivity with computer-based learning. I'm not talking about scanning textbooks to the tablet. I'm referring to using the full multimedia capability of devices like the tablet that put computing power in a format that is the size of a book. An additional game changer is the possibility of interaction with live tutors and native speakers. Now, I know that some people do not believe in using tutors because they are capable of doing everything by themselves. No problem; it's optional. At least those of us who need feedback on our speaking or writing have a choice. Or we can join virtual chat groups with native speakers present to help us out. As was so rightly pointed out, who needs another beginner book in any of the major languages when technology and the Internet are offering so many other possibilities? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 44 of 139 28 August 2013 at 4:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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Some languages have changed their orthographies meanwhile. Dutch and Romanian are good
cases in point. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5008 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 45 of 139 28 August 2013 at 6:24pm | IP Logged | ||
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Ortographies change, such as the German one. And sometimes the grammar changes as well, there have been some changes in Czech during the 20th century and I've heard of a few in other languages as well, even though I would need to think for longer or search to give a good example. The changes in grammar usually reflect changes in spoken language, increase or decline of usage of some patterns, or features of a dialect or slang grammar becoming the norm. And than there are changes in the use of language, such as when to use polite forms and the less formal ones (a good example is the Spanish decrease of Usted). So, it would take a bit more to create a new textbook on the base of an old one.
Well, I have nothing against language groups, exchanges and so on, I am not stupid not to seek good opportunities to practice and get relevant feedback despite what you think, salard. I just don't believe a tutor is the best option. Especially as too many of them are students or absolvents of pedagogical faculties and have a lot of bad habits and stupid theories. Sometimes they have even trouble with giving good enough feedback. I think you totally misunderstood my post. That was exactly my point that scanning textbooks is not the way. The real use for the tablets lies elsewhere and the publishers have mostly no clue what to do. Some are bravely trying, often through experiments and errors. Others just make something that looks good at first sight, they get the money for purchase and don't care the product is useless. The new projects and creators are usually much better at finding things that could work. Memrise is actually a good example of an awesome idea, awesome beta and than decision to forget all the user feedback and ruin something only to make it look fancier. But they are just the first scouts, there are many other projects. I think things like Babbel, Duolingo and so on are on the good way but will need a lot of work and feedback to become really good. But they will not trully replace a good quality course with audio because they are still more like toys than real resources. I highly doubt any new interactive shiny things will ever become more efficient than a course combined with native materials and practice. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 46 of 139 28 August 2013 at 7:07pm | IP Logged | ||
And I was talking mostly about explanations. There are (and have always been) people who just aren't capable of understanding grammar, no matter how hard they try. But this is a small minority that can barely use traditional textbooks anyway. Most people who say they don't get grammar (especially those with a scientific/logical/technical background, as Cavesa mentioned) just haven't got good and flexible explanations from their books or teachers. I think it's been mentioned before that textbook authors underestimate their target audience's abilities and especially fail to understand that intelligence can be of many kinds, and a lack of "linguistic intelligence" (=having troubles with languages in school) doesn't mean you're doomed. Edited by Serpent on 28 August 2013 at 10:00pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5865 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 47 of 139 28 August 2013 at 7:10pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yes, there is the perception that there is a lack of intermediate/advanced material. Actually, a lot of such material exists but it is hard to figure out and find. And we could do a whole lot here on HTLAL to make it easy.
I am talking about unabridged audio books together with the paper version of the book, as long as they are the same. I have tried several in Dutch and I have had a lot of problems finding a matching set. Usually the audio is very abridged, or simply different than the text version. It is very expensive to keep buying what might be a matching set only to find that they are very different. I started a thread here a few years ago for the purpose of people reporting such matching pairs (in any language). I did list there a few Dutch audio/text pairs that I had found. But my recent searches of HTLAL have failed to find that thread. I'm convinced that many people have found these matching pairs, but almost nobody ever reports them here. What we need is the name and ISBN number, or some other positive identification about editions of both the audio book and the matching paper book. With the huge increase in the number of major books and novels that are now available as audio books, there must be thousands that are an exact match. If we had a good thread with lots of reports of exact pairs, I'm convinced that many people would use them for their intermediate/advanced study. Then maybe we would not abandon our learning process because many interesting audio/text books are begging to be read and listened to. If only we knew which ones. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5008 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 48 of 139 28 August 2013 at 8:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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Tommus, I think this is an excellent topic for the wikia. We are already putting together lists of tv shows both originals and with good qualiy dubbing in the language (as you are still unlikely to avoid american tv in other languages under most conditions). I plan to start (or continue if anyone else started) a list of good reading books of the popular genres (as there is so much to choose from and so few learner relevant reviews apart of this forum, unlike when it comes to the classics) and a music bands list. Having such a good pairs list would be totally awesome!
3 persons have voted this message useful |
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