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Reducing Self-Study Method Abandonment | ||
Tags: Burn-out | Self-Study | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5865 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 57 of 139 29 August 2013 at 4:48am | IP Logged | |||||
OK. You convinced me. So I just added the following page: http://learnanylanguage.wikia.com/wiki/Lists_of_unabridged_a udiobook/book_pairs_by_language Unfortunately, the two Dutch books that I know have have matching audiobooks have had the free audiobooks disappear from the Internet. I found a source for one of them but it is not free. So I have one Dutch book listed. I put in sections for several languages but of course, more can be added. This page shows up in the same category as the list of TV shows, namely: How to practice and improve your language So it is a start. But it will only work if people add audiobook/book pairs that they know match. I think such pairs will really help intermediate/advanced learners to "stick with the program" by making available good interesting books with matching audio. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5008 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 58 of 139 29 August 2013 at 5:04am | IP Logged | |||||
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Do you think it is a realistic idea, salard? I don't think so. Software will never be able to give as much feedback as a qualified and intelligent human (and even many of those struggle). And employing people to do the job will hardly lessen the costs.
I mentioned the classroom "interactivity" example because it comes from the same ideas and theories as the "interactivity" of many of the modern tools. Because most people making the tools come from the classrooms, use research made on classrooms, statistical data from classrooms, their experience from classrooms and so on. These two areas of learning have more in common than is visible at first sight and more than is good. And you speak of repeating after audio as if there was no feedback. Don't you have ears? Yes, you will never be perfect at telling all your mistakes but you can become better and better at finding and correcting them. Just as musicians train the ear to find out te proper height of the tone and to harmonize. And there are options the audio gives and the tutor doesn't. Do you know a tutor who would practice the same trouble with you again and again five times a week, whenever you feel like it, until you progress? I think a human tutor would easily get annoyed after a dozen attempts. And I have actually met a lot of people who weren't much better at giving feedback than your own comparison to audio. With good intentions, they don't want to drive people away or they falsely believe you are at the ceiling of your potential. Giving appropriate feedback is a skill not every person does have. And teaching the machine may prove much more complicated than you seem to think. And as soon as you have the human tutors back in the system, the whole thing will cost a lot and we are back at the beginning of the circle. I agree with Arekkusu that if the "big players" are the only future of the whole system, we are doomed (as the big players in all areas dream of people being stupid monkeys obeying marketing and not blaming them for bad results). But I think there will be viable alternatives. People doing the job and minding the quality as well and not only the money, people going the alternative ways, primarily for fun and for the sake of experiment, and communities helping each other, such as the ones for language exchanges. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5429 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 59 of 139 29 August 2013 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | |||||
I have to confess that my ears are not as good as @Cavesa's. As much as I listen to those Spanish recordings and repeat to myself, it's not the same as working with my tutor Paco. He's not cheap but for me he's worth every penny. I and all my Spanish-speaking friends have noticed that my spoken Spanish, especially the accent, has improved spectacularly. Especially in conversational settings where I have to interact quickly. Gone are the days of stuttering and searching for the right words. And when I have to give a presentation in Spanish, I rehearse before Paco until I get it just right. Working with a tutor has been a godsend for me. It's the best decision I ever made to take my Spanish to a higher level. I even intend to work with different tutors so that I get exposed to different accents and speaking styles. As for written Spanish, I need hardly mention the value of having someone go through my writing and point out not only all the mistakes but how I can make it sound more natural with the right expressions. It's funny @cavesa should mention musicians. I've taken music lessons for over 10 years and I've never met a musician who doesn't value working with a good teacher or a coach. Or even just attending a master class by a great performer. But, obviously, not everybody values working with a tutor. I'm not one of them. Now, on to more serious stuff.
In my previous post, I said that books will probably continue to exist at the low end of language learning products. But it is true that the new generation of independent language learning products will require major investments. But it's not the authors who have to make these investments; it's the publishing houses. And it's not thousands of dollars, it's hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions. The language teaching business is an industry like any other. Assimil, Rosetta Stone, Fluenz, Pimsleur and the many others are not charitable organizations dedicated to preserving the linguistic heritage of humanity. They are there to make money. On this note, the example of Rosetta Stone is quite interesting. Although most people here at HTLAL start foaming at the mouth when they hear the word RS, we must admit that (1) some people like the product; (2) many people buy it; (3) RS covers a wide range of languages (4) RS invests a lot of money in their products and (5) RS makes a lot of money. I am not saying that RS is a good or bad product. Their Totale online product with live conversation and learner groups is where they are heading. It's also important to note that RS also sponsored the Endangered Language Project to help preserve some of the many threatened minority languages Here is the description.. They are no longer accepting applications but they still support the existing projects. I don't know of any other publisher that has done anything for endangered languages. We may or may not like RS but they are certainly looking towards the future. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5008 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 60 of 139 29 August 2013 at 5:56pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I must confess I dislike people like sallard who take only small pieces of what others said and manipulate them to serve their flawed arguments. So, a simpler explanation so that there would be no misunderstanding:
1.I never said audio and tutor are the same things. 2.Audio does have a lot to offer. And it can be a full substitution at SOME stages. 3.You are lucky to have found your Paco. In most cases, people just pay for new and new tutors without finding a good one. But this is a pointless discussion because Sallard, as usual, just repeats the same things over and over and gets offensive. And away from the original topic. As usual, it would be beneficial, Sallard, to keep to the topic instead of trying to prove the whole topic doesn't make sense. Yes, the publishing houses and their investments will be important for the next generation of products but your example proves exactly why it is wrong: A lot of people like and buy RS, it is available for many languages and they pour a lot of money into the thing (especially in marketing). Yet still, there is no single one successful learner coming out of the millions sold copies. You still don't get the trouble? Yes, they include the living sessions and so do others. I was recently interested in the new Living Language product and even considered buying it. They have the live sessions, which sounds like an awesome feature until you get more information. But they have terms and conditions saying that you cannot use them freely to your needs, you need to exactly follow the given pattern. So, following closely the rules, you cannot even ask for a phrase which is not covered in the program. So there are real people you can use but they are no better than the audio or a machine recognition program. The RS has got the endangered language project and it was discussed on htlal already. The only catch is that RS by itself doesn't work. And it will be just as expensive as the others so many heritage learners either won't buy it anyways or it will be a huge waste of public money. The RS is looking towards the future because it is the only way to find out how to milk it. The functionality of the product and results of customers are waaaaay bellow on the list of priorities. Which brings us back to the topic: as Arekkusu proves, some authors are interested not only in selling the copies but as well in doing good job and helping people achieve their goals. Fluenz, you mentioned, is actually one of the good examples and is closer to the alternatives me and Arekkusu mentioned than to the huge complanies. Well, they might become a huge company because they are doing their best to make a great product, good for them. But the whole difference lies in the priorities. Fluenz builts on what works for the customer, RS builts on what looks good in advertisements. A whole world of difference. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5261 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 61 of 139 29 August 2013 at 8:35pm | IP Logged | |||||
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All this focus on courses is understandable as arrekusu has just written one and most people use them in self-learning. I can't really advise arekkusu about how I would improve a course because what I would like to see, instead of new courses, is something else. I'd like to have an update of the Barry Farber book How to Learn Any Language: Quickly, Easily, Inexpensively, Enjoyably and on Your Own the namesake, if not the inspiration, of this forum. The book was first published in 1991- pre-internet.
It was Farber's story and his methods that helped me to learn Spanish. His back-story inspired me and his methods gave me a path to follow. The book starts out with his own story of language-learning and then the methods and process to learn a language. I like his approach to language learning, namely the "multi-track" approach
He then goes on to detail multiple learning resources such as a good phrase book, a dictionary, an audio course (he gushes over Pimsleur), flashcards, a newspaper, basic reader and a highlight pen. This is all good advice but woefully outdated. More of us read newspapers online. Flashcards are on our smartphones. I can make highlights electronically on my kindle or pdf's. Twitter, podcasts, dvd's, subtitle files and skype didn't exist when Farber punlished his book. We provide the updated version of how to learn a language everyday here on the forum in real time. There's no reason why the updated 21st century advice we give here everyday couldn't be put into a book form and benefit the average joe who wants to learn a language but doesn't necessarily want to join a forum. What I'd like to see is a book with chapters on Listening/Reading, language exchanges, DLI and FSI courses, Assimil, Pimsleur-etc., Anki, subtitles, how to use films and dvd's in language-learning, how to use podcasts, how to make your own bilingual texts, how to customize pdf's and audio, how to use wikipedia, shadowing and its benefits, wordlists, goldlist, and as much as possible- internet resources. Such a book would need updating every couple of years and/or with a dedicated website to update links. If such a book existed, it would teach people how to learn effectively on their own by creating their own course structured to their own needs rather than a one size fits all system. Granted, I know that some people crave and need structure provided for them. I'm not one of them and I am not alone. There needs to be something for these folks who haven't spent two or three years on HTLAL to help them get the majority of benefits that we who have been members for a while get by virtue of being here on this forum day in and day out. Edit: I have my doubts that the wikia would serve as an adequate substitute for such a book as I have described because of the need for consensus tending to water down some of the methods. Ideally I'd like to see the book be a collaboration of two authors or a compilation of multiple authors each describing their best recommendations for someone going from scratch as a beginner to speaking at a high level, at least B2. Having one identifiable author has bias but that is identifiable whereas an unaccountable- anyone can contribute or edit- wikia (for me) has less authority because I don't know the author's or authors' bias. Edited by iguanamon on 29 August 2013 at 9:06pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 63 of 139 29 August 2013 at 9:49pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I agree. I was so disappointed when I had read Gunnemark's book and was looking for more books about language learning but there were only resources for specific languages.
For me the main flaw of the wikia is just that a casual learner won't find it. Even blogs of individual learners like Sprachprofi or Benny are easier to come across... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 64 of 139 29 August 2013 at 10:10pm | IP Logged | |||||
I agree with Serpent!!! Whence cometh this madness? I am not a blind idiot, textbook writers... 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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