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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5435 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 217 of 299 28 October 2013 at 3:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I stand corrected. Norway is not tiny but sparsely populated. I apologize. But let's get back to our infamous Balkan languages. I am trying very hard to get some educational value out of all this. I am open to being corrected. Educate me. If I can't rely on political documents like those of the UN, the EU, the constitutions of the various countries concerned, what am I supposed to rely on? Should I learn to speak Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin before expressing an opinion about the status of these languages? We always keep hitting the same wall. A country named Serbia has a language, Serbian. No problem. A country named Croatia has a language, Croatian. No problem. A country named Bosnia has a language, Bosnian. Wait a minute. No way, Bosnian can't be a language; it doesn't exist; it can't exist. It's really Serbo-Croatian. A country named Montenegro has a language, Montenegrin. This is even worse. No such thing can possibly exist. In fact, everybody says that these languages are so mutually intelligible that structually they are all one language. I actually agree. So why not call them by one neutral name let's say Yugoslavian? Then we would have Serbian Yugoslavian, Croatian Yugoslavian, Bosnian Yugoslavian and Montenegrin Yugoslavian. Isn't this what we do with English where we have British English, American English, Australian English, etc? And what about all the varieties of Spanish or French? If my suggestion of the common name, Yugoslavian, doesn't fly, substitute any other name. We know of course that the conditions under which Yugoslavia disintegrated did not favour the choice of a common language name, and we now have four where we could have had just one if everybody had agreed like one big happy family. It was not to be. To me this all seems like a political process enshrined in political documents. What I find so unusual about this debate is that so many people are dumping on the Bosnians and the Montenegrins. How dare they declare their own official languages? Have they no clue about linguistics. And all those international bodies that recognize these official languages? They need to be educated. Edited by s_allard on 28 October 2013 at 3:31pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4712 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 218 of 299 28 October 2013 at 3:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Linguistics. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5435 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 219 of 299 28 October 2013 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
This is the problem. I take the time to ask certain questions and all I get is cryptic answers. For example, what should be the names of the official language(s) of Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro? How does linguistics help us resolve this problem? Edited by s_allard on 28 October 2013 at 3:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6602 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 220 of 299 28 October 2013 at 3:43pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I'm no expert but it sure sounds similar to what the Russian government is doing. There are very real problems and they are distracting the people with topics like "Pussy Riot", "gay propaganda" and other bullshіt. In most of the former Yugoslavia, language appears to be the preferred "Important Issue We Need To Deal With" while ignoring much more urgent things.
Maybe in the future the issue will become less sensitive and the countries will agree on the X in Serbian X, Croatian X, Bosnian X and Montenegrin X. They've already voted for each other in Eurovision so there's hope :-) Edited by Serpent on 28 October 2013 at 3:44pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4712 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 221 of 299 28 October 2013 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Serbo-Croatian or BCMS/SC. Serbian variant, Croatian variant, Bosnian variant, Montenegrin variant. The same as Dutch or Flemish both being standard versions of Dutch. US/UK English. Edited by tarvos on 28 October 2013 at 3:55pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5339 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 222 of 299 28 October 2013 at 4:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I have so little personal knowledge about the Balkan languages, that I can not give an independent opinion on them - but I have read Chung's log with great interest over the last couple of days (it is long :-) and he seems to have done a very thorough analysis of what is presented as the differences between Croation and Serbian. My perception, based on that, is that the difference - right now - are small. Too small to call them different languages.
And although from a language learner perspective I would like them to stay as close as possible, because I would like to learn them some day, I can see why the peoples concerned would want their own language. That was in fact the very same reason why Nynorsk was created once upon a time. It was felt to be important for the Norwegian people to have their own language, one based on the original dialects, and not tainted by Danish. I do not think we should judge people for feeling that way, or even for deliberately working to make the variants as different as possible, so that they will in fact evolve into different languages. We use nationalistic as if it was a bad word, but if you have lived under opression, it is just a way of getting back to your roots. In Norway we are proud of our flag and use it for birthdays and any sort of celebrations, in addition to the offical "flag-days", and on the 17th of May the country is covered in red, white and blue. We are proud of our national costumes and use them for the national holiday, baptisms and confirmations and we even get married in them, or use them when the parliament is opened or when there is a celebration at the Royal Castle. And although I am personally not a big fan of our "Western-Norway Esperanto", Nynorsk, I support the sentiments that was behind the creation of it. We are lucky, in that since we have not been a belligerent nation for the last 1000 years or so, nobody bother us about it. We should therefore also show understanding for the fact that even in a territory that has seen so much violence in our lifetime, they have a legitime desire to be proud of their nation - using the typical markers for a free nation, including the language. That does not mean that we should accept a language as a language if it is not, but we should respect their right to change it until it is. Edited by Solfrid Cristin on 28 October 2013 at 4:31pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6602 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 223 of 299 28 October 2013 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Great post! But as Chung also mentioned, ironically too much prescriptiveness only slows down the process. Let the dialects and colloquialisms flourish, and soon you'll have a real base for a new language.
2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5435 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 224 of 299 28 October 2013 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Congrats to @Solfrid Cristin for a) not minding that I called Norway a tiny country and b) providing a nice summary
of the situation of the Balkan languages. I think we can all agree with this description. It will be interesting to see the future evolution. I suspect that we will see official attempts to differentiate the languages but on the ground there will probably some merging due to the homogenizing effects of media and formal education. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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