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Never had classes but have reached a wall | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 41 of 77 16 December 2013 at 5:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
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OP, you say you hate grammar because you're ENFP. Well, I'm INFP* and I love it, but I've grown to hate learning it in class/formally. First of all, the Finnish grammar is logical, and now I compare any language to it and get annoyed. Secondly, I hate how boring most texts in coursebooks are. I myself still haven't got around to "making my own exercises", but I've done that a lot with Anki. I really think you need SRS.
Why do you repeatedly come to the idea that maybe you need classes? You've got some great advice last time, and it seems like you've improved your listening. How many things have you tried? It seems like you're trying to find a perfect textbook that will fix your grammar. I'm afraid it might not exist. A multitrack approach is needed. Dutch probably has fewer "fun learning" resources than Spanish, but it's not an endangered language with 500 native speakers and a grammar book written in the 1800s. I've also recently realized that variety is important in terms of techniques as well. There are some modes of studying that I love and can do infinitely (playing lyricstraining or watching football), and there are others that are great to use once in a while but would make me horribly bored if I tried to use them daily. Also, have you tried podcasts? (for learners, with explanations in English) It sounds like you're an aural learner (ha), just like me :) I think you need to look for ways to learn the grammar through audio. There seems to be a great difference for you between using the written resources for fun and learning grammar from them. *to those that don't know/care about MBTI types: we differ only on the introvert/extrovert scale. Edited by Serpent on 16 December 2013 at 5:50pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 42 of 77 16 December 2013 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
Edited by Serpent on 16 December 2013 at 6:07pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5531 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 43 of 77 16 December 2013 at 6:29pm | IP Logged | |||||
Do you still live in Quebec? If so, I'm not surprised that you can find excellent French classes near you. If an immigrant doesn't speak French, then they'll be forced to live in an English bubble somewhere in Montreal. And even in Montreal, speaking French is an enormous asset. From what little I've seen, the monolingual anglophones aren't doing themselves any favors. So there's a huge, ready-made market of determined students, and Quebec's government policy is very much in favor of teaching them French. In general, most large, monolingual countries can teach their own language quite well. The US is certainly quite good at teaching English, for example, especially to motivated, literate students. And if the poster were still living in a major city in the Netherlands, I'd bet that they could find intensive classes. And such classes would be an excellent idea. But going by my experiences in the US, nobody in the average foreign language classroom is serious about producing fluent students. Some students are trying to make their college applications look good, so they need a piece of paper saying they took two years of French, Spanish or German. Other students are adults who "always wanted to learn French", but really, they're pretty much the equivalent of people who buy gym memberships in early January because they "really want to get into shape this time." And the teacher is just thankful that somebody does the homework, or at least pays the tuition bill. If an A2 French student walked in and said, "I'm planning to enroll in the Sorbonne as FLE student in 18 months, and I've already completed 15% of my Super Challenge. What's my next step?", the poor teacher would be a bit startled. That's like walking into the local health club on January 3rd and asking the personal trainer if Starting Strength is a good way to become a competitive power lifter. I think we all agree that serious, focused classes at the appropriate level would be extremely useful for many students. FSI can allegedly produce C1(ish) French speakers in 24 weeks, starting from zero, using relatively high-pressure methods. If I could, I would happily sign up for this sort of class. But what's actually available? Let's take a look at the city of Burlington, Vermont. This is the largest city in the state of Vermont, and it's less than 45 minutes from the Quebec border, so they get lots of French-speaking tourists. The local Alliance Française chapter has an active French education program, and the woman who runs it is a native speaker (and she's very nice to beginners!). Looking at their site, the most advanced class currently listed is the Advanced Grammar Refresher, described as follows:
This is a certainly a very curious definition of "advanced." It's mostly B1-level stuff at the very highest, and diligent students probably know much of it by A2. In my mind, an "advanced" class should cover things like making business presentations to French clients or having witty, intelligent conversations in French about French art films. Back when I was around B1, and I had been living in immersion for maybe a month, I actually visited this chapter of the Alliance Française (they were serving free pastis!). My adrenaline-fueled B1 French, still completely ignorant of little things like partitive articles, was still enough to put me in the upper ranks of the students present that evening. Even though my brain was melting from sheer overload, I could actually chat with people. So this is why I say that classes might not always be the right choice. If you sign up with a bunch of well-intentioned "advanced" students who can't really carry on conversations, and who are still reviewing the difference between y and en, the biggest danger is that you'll start to think you're some kind of genius. And meanwhile, you'll still be stuck at the stage where native speakers think, "Oh, cute! Look who learned some French words! Maybe I'll talk to them for 5 minutes at a party, because pantomime can be fun when I have nothing better to do." One advantage of self-study is that you'll tend to compare your performance to actual, native speakers. This may often be depressing or demotivating, but it will certainly never cause you to feel smug because you're the best student in your class. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 44 of 77 16 December 2013 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
Both with exercising/weight loss and language learning, there's a point where you should stop interfering with the natural speed and instead be patient, much like what the AJATT guy described. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5261 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 45 of 77 16 December 2013 at 7:20pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Well said, emk and Serpent! The OP has been given great advice, but it's up to him to follow it. If he were in the Netherlands, I'd say yeah, go ahead and see what's on offer locally. In London, I think the OP would be better off with massive input. See Hekje's; A Padawan learns Dutch log along with emk's French: Wandering towards C1. Emk has written the best guide towards advancing beyond the beginner level on this forum. With over 100 pages and over a 2:1 vote to post ratio, hs log is the most popular on the forum and not just with French learners. He's too modest to promote himself, but his log can help you and anyone else studying a western language to take your language to the next level.
Instead of just "watching some Dutch TV", watch a whole series regularly and consistently. Work on it, every day or most days during a week. Don't just passively watch. Take notes. Use subs to srs. Write a review in Dutch. Post your review on lang8 or get a native-speaker, or better yet, get your tutor to look at it. Yeah, it will be hard, but it will eventually get easier. Treat native media every bit as seriously as you do formal study materials. Make it a habit. Also, get a good grammar book and consult it often. Don't read it from cover to cover and "study" it. Use it to solve your problems with what you're seeing, hearing and speaking in Dutch rather than depending on it to teach you from scratch. Do drills, I'm sure some can be found if you'll look. Holland can be reached by ferry from the UK. Spend a long weekend there every three months. Make friends in person and online. There are bound to be plenty of native Dutch-speakers in the UK who get together to do things in Dutch. Find them. You wrote that you can't use skype, what! You've obviously got a computer and internet, download skype (or some other voip, buy a headset and use it! Get a private tutor and tell him/her that you want to work on conversation and writing. Even once a week one hour sessions can help a lot. Get active on lang8 and participate in Dutch forums about topics you're interested in. If you can find chat partners, even better. Try to speak as often as you can. Try graphic novels, songs, twitter, etc. In short, if you're serious about learning Dutch. Get serious about it and make it happen. Member Vos was living in far-off Australia and worked really hard on Dutch. There's loads of good advice here on the forum, but you have to follow it. Despite the claims of courses, it's not done "with ease", but by consistency, persistence and hard work. Even if you do take classes, you're going to have to do a lot on your own outside of those classes to make it happen. You'll need that same discipline you say you lack in order to make classes work for you too. I just think you can do it much more efficiently and quicker on your own and with a private tutor than by doing a "one-size fits all" program, but to each his own. Good luck. Edited by iguanamon on 16 December 2013 at 7:32pm 9 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5429 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 46 of 77 16 December 2013 at 7:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
Let's be fair here. If you are at a higher level, there's more to learning French in Burlington than the Alliance française. Down the street, in a manner of speaking, from the Alliance française is the University of Vermont at Burlington with a large Department of Romance Languages and Linguistics. List of French courses Here are just two of the lower-level courses: FREN 101 - Writing Workshop Improvement of functional skills: writing, listening, and speaking. Development of techniques to explain, elaborate, support opinions, convince, and persuade in both writing and speaking. Prerequisite: FREN 052 or equivalent. Credits: 3 FREN 107 - Focus on Oral Expression Guided practice of oral-aural skills through vocabulary and pronunciation exercises, readings, and oral presentations. Writing exercises reinforce oral work. Prerequisite: FREN 052 or equivalent. Credits: 3 If those courses are too easy, then how about these two: FREN 269 - La Belle Epoque The aesthetic and moral dilemmas of the turn-of-the-century "decadent" period in French literature, focusing especially on the changing representation of the artist and intellectual. Prerequisites: FREN 141 or FREN 142. Credits: 3 FREN 270 - Lyric Poetry:Harmony & Crisis A consideration of the French lyric tradition. Authors may include the troubadours, Ronsard, Dubellay, Hugo, Baudelaire, Mallarme, Rimbaud, Valery, Roubaud. Prerequisites: FREN 141 or FREN 142. Credits: 3 I know all of this is wandering away from the OP. I fully support self-learning and all the good advice given here. It just seems to me that many people dismiss courses as a bunch of useless crap. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 47 of 77 16 December 2013 at 8:31pm | IP Logged | |||||
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And you still haven't addressed the Gulliver issue. Most people taking the intermediate class come after a beginner class and they're the opposite of the OP: they know the basic grammar, they can write and speak but they can't understand native materials. Most courses will spoon-feed them short bits of native audio and get them to read a book (always intensively, writing out all the vocabulary etc). The writing and speaking tasks are about practising the intermediate grammar: "what would you do if you won the lottery?", that sort of topics/texts. I also think that the OP already knows most of the vocabulary covered by the "main" materials in the beginner AND intermediate courses, ie not counting the "supplemental" (and often optional) native materials.
(The intensive/extensive distinction reminded me on this wikia article. I obviously agree with iguanamon that you can get more out of native materials if you use them the right way) I don't dismiss all courses as a bunch of crap. I just dismiss various kinds of courses as bad in their own way. Each happy family is happy in the same way etc... I basically need a course of FSI's effectiveness but one that will never make one cry. And in my case this also includes crying from boredom as I think of my computer with GLOSS, lyricstraining, audiobooks and football matches. Not to mention that the price of one lesson is usually enough to buy at least one unit of native materials - a book, a DVD, several cheap books even. Edited by Serpent on 16 December 2013 at 8:41pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5531 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 48 of 77 16 December 2013 at 8:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'd actually be quite tempted by these courses if I lived closer to Burlington. Of course, a lot would depend on how demanding the courses were, and whether they were taught entirely in French. The only way my French is going to get better quickly at this point is if somebody assigns me 300 pages of French reading a week and expects me to have intelligent opinions about it and defend those opinions on my feet. And frankly, many of UVM's students would complain about doing that even in their native language. But unfortunately, I'm not a full-time undergraduate student enrolled at UVM. In reality, I would only be eligible for their adult education program. As far as I can tell, this is UVM's most advanced adult course:
So that's a total waste of my time. And that's before we add the final factor: Compared to where I actually live, Burlington is a giant, booming metropolis. The courses available to me include: - French, "Rank Beginner" level. - A rather suspicious-looking community college that no longer publishes a course catalog. - A once-a-year, 9-day intensive French course which theoretically goes to an "advanced" level. This is taught by a reputable language school—but it's unfortunately the same school which poisoned my love of languages for a full decade. So sure, I wish I had good French classes available. But like a lot of folks, I don't have easy access to appropriate classes beyond the novice level. For motivated language learners who lack access to true intensive courses, the fastest way to make rapid progress will often be a combination of self-study, home-based "immersion" and a good Skype tutor. 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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