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Dead Languages & Polyglottery

 Language Learning Forum : Polyglots Post Reply
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AML
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6826 days ago
323 posts - 426 votes 
2 sounds
Speaks: English*
Studies: Modern Hebrew, German, Spanish

 
 Message 25 of 115
18 July 2006 at 4:16pm | IP Logged 
It seems as though learning Modern Icelandic could be just as good as
learning Old Norse. They are essentially the same language.

example


Also, go to amazon.com and check out this book: Old
English and its Closest Relatives. Looks like a great survey/comparison of
old Germanic languages. I ordered it today, as I intend to take Ardaschir's
advice and try to learn Latin and Old English (instead of Old Norse).

Edited by AML on 18 July 2006 at 4:33pm
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Sinfonia
Senior Member
Wales
Joined 6745 days ago
255 posts - 261 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 26 of 115
18 July 2006 at 6:18pm | IP Logged 
sigiloso wrote:

With due respect, you haven't understood. What a terrible thing to say.


And with due respect to you, I think I've understood well enough; and what I said hardly constitutes 'a terrible thing to say'.

sigiloso wrote:

Ardaschir was giving the best of his own experience, together with the experience of earlier polyglots. Mind this is in the polyglots discussion section, where we are supposed to discuss on the nature of and the means to achieve polyglottery, no beginner's section, and when Ardaschir uses the word polyglottery he has in mind the conquest of whole families of around a dozen languages each, something that he knows is possible among other reasons because he has done it himself, I reckon he must be moving today beyond 40.


I don't really dispute anything here. All I said about Ardaschir was that it was patently absurd to claim, as he did, that "a knowledge of ancestral "dead" languages such as Latin, Old Norse, or Sanskrit is an integral and essential ingredient of polyglottery".

sigiloso wrote:

but Ardaschair was pointing to more insightful factors beyõnd that, in my own words:
- development of linguistic intuition, that is, the feeling of how a word should be in, say, Romanian, even before ever having encountered the word


Great, but you don't need a knowledge of ancient languages if you know related living ones.

sigiloso wrote:

- creation of a network of what I call "nemonic slots" in your mind, you are kinda dying to fill up; example, without me knowing Romanian, the learned word for things connected with rain is bound to be some "pluv- with a Romanian ending which explanation I am bound to know and retain if I know the changes, unless some Slavonic influence, but I would retain better nonetheless, because in my mind would be an exception, you know, one key of memory, finding a sense to a mass of information; while the plain word for rain is bound to be one with the sound changes that I know too, so you learn very quick; if you are aiming only 2-3 naturally forget about this,


(I apologise for editing you a bit here, but I found your English a bit difficult to follow in places.) I could tell you exactly the same kind of thing without knowledge of ancestral languages of Romanian.


sigiloso wrote:

but do you know how for example hindic languages organize (dead drop cultural heritage, 1 billion speakers soon)?
-the mother language is the link which tie them up together; from the other´s you go to the rest sort of blindfolded, or in a ridiculous roundabout


This is just a silly exaggeration of reality. Again, that's all I'm saying against Ardaschir.


sigiloso wrote:

-insight and a feel of how languages evolve through history, so insight in Language as a human faculty that you get directly, no in a linguistics handbook
-and above all, the pleasure and gratification of knowing things properly, for Christ's sake. Do you want to have a culture or a cultural veneer?


You're going way over the top with this, just as Ardaschir did!


sigiloso wrote:

When you don't know Latin etc, and you go around pretending you know about language, you end up being the laughing stock of the ones who really know; it has happened to me in uni, without them you are like a half-linguist, an amateurish mumbler.


Well, in that case you'd better sit down and pour yourself a stiff drink, because I know almost no Latin, no Sanskrit, no Ancient Greek; yet I'm fairly confident I'm more than a match for Ardaschir both as a linguist and as a polyglot :-p
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Sinfonia
Senior Member
Wales
Joined 6745 days ago
255 posts - 261 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 27 of 115
18 July 2006 at 6:27pm | IP Logged 
CaitO'Ceallaigh wrote:

I don't know about this. I think you're right, but it's backwards. Sure, I know some Czech and Russian, and when I see Old Church Slavonic, I understand quite a bit. But imagine if I knew Old Church Slavonic. I'd have an even deeper understanding of all Slavic languages.


Probably, in some disconnected sense. The thing is, though, languages *evolve*. A knowledge of Latin doesn't help much with French or Spanish, say, and definitely not with one of the Romanian languages, because they've evolved 'too far' away from it. On the other hand, Latin's great for getting to grips with some fundamentals of syntax!


CaitO'Ceallaigh wrote:

I would assume the same if I knew Latin, which I don't. You know, I'm so glad this thread came up, because I've been thinking about studying Portuguese or Italian next. I couldn't decide, because I'd like to know both, actually. Catalan intrigues me, as well. I'm fascinated by Aragonese as well for some reason. Why, I should just study Latin, and nip all these romance languages in the bud!


It won't really help; Latin doesn't much resemble any of those languages. Unless your reasons for learning languages have little to do with communication, I'd recommend learning Portuguese or Italian or Catalan (and even Aragonese) for a while, then using the insights you've gained from that experience to learn the other two more or less simultaneously. That way, at least you'll be able to talk to real people on your (or their) travels, or at least read some modern stuff! On the other hand, even if you were planning to get an audience with the pope with your Latin, don't forget he knows a bit of Italian and Portuguese, and probably a few phrases in Catalan :-)


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AML
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6826 days ago
323 posts - 426 votes 
2 sounds
Speaks: English*
Studies: Modern Hebrew, German, Spanish

 
 Message 28 of 115
18 July 2006 at 11:10pm | IP Logged 
Sinfonia, your point of view is very interesting. Would you characterize
yourself as more of a "conversational polyglot" like Ardaschir mentioned a
couple pages back - less interested in philology and more interested in
communication?
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Tjerk
Bilingual Pentaglot
Groupie
Belgium
Joined 6758 days ago
54 posts - 59 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, Flemish*, English, Spanish, French
Studies: Swedish

 
 Message 29 of 115
19 July 2006 at 4:58am | IP Logged 
I can't agree with sinfonia. I studied four years of latin in secondary school and it helped me an awful lot to study english, french and Spanish, all languages that i studied afterwards.

Not only in grammar but also in vocab there are so many things to recycle.

Have you tried it yourself Sinfonia ?
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Sinfonia
Senior Member
Wales
Joined 6745 days ago
255 posts - 261 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 30 of 115
19 July 2006 at 2:45pm | IP Logged 
AML wrote:
Sinfonia, your point of view is very interesting. Would you characterize
yourself as more of a "conversational polyglot" like Ardaschir mentioned a
couple pages back - less interested in philology and more interested in
communication?


I'm very interested in philology, in all aspects of historical linguistics, in fact. All I'm saying is that Ardaschir's claim that the great, but ancient or dead languages are indispensible to a would-be polyglot is just silly.
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Sinfonia
Senior Member
Wales
Joined 6745 days ago
255 posts - 261 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 31 of 115
19 July 2006 at 2:47pm | IP Logged 
Tjerk wrote:
I can't agree with sinfonia. I studied four years of latin in secondary school and it helped me an awful lot to study english, french and Spanish, all languages that i studied afterwards.

Not only in grammar but also in vocab there are so many things to recycle.

Have you tried it yourself Sinfonia ?


Yes, and I still study it in small doses, but it's simply a very interesting historical artefact; nothing more. It might help with learning some other languages in some ways, but so would learning a related living language -- with the added benefits already mentioned.
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AML
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6826 days ago
323 posts - 426 votes 
2 sounds
Speaks: English*
Studies: Modern Hebrew, German, Spanish

 
 Message 32 of 115
19 July 2006 at 8:46pm | IP Logged 
I guess we can all agree that if you want to know where a family of
languages came from it would be useful to study its predecessors. For
example, if you're interested in seeing where French, Spanish, Italian, etc
came from, then studying Latin would be very useful. Likewise for
studying Old English or Old Norse to see where English, German, Dutch,
etc came from.

Sinfonia's point, as far as I can tell, is that if you're learning those dead
languages to help with your learning of living languages, then it won't be
any more beneficial than just learning related living languages. For
example, learning Latin won't help you learn Spanish any more than
Italian will. In fact, learning Italian may be better in helping you learn
Spanish, plus you get the added benefit of knowing another living
language.

It just depends on what you want.


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