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Letter to language programs publishers | ||
Tags: Language Program | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| KingM Triglot Senior Member michaelwallaceauthor Joined 7190 days ago 275 posts - 300 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, French Studies: Russian | Message 25 of 44 15 April 2005 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Look, I'm not questioning your language ability. You surely speak Spanish quite well. I'd be dumbfounded if you knew languages like this member of our forum, but I'd be surprised if there are twenty people on this planet who could make that claim. To the point, there's a good chance you speak Spanish as well or better than I do. I haven't written any courses, but I've never claimed that I would do that better than you do, only that I've found most language courses less than helpful for the reasons that Heartburn suggested.
Absolutely. I haven't worked within this specific niche, but I've got a good deal of experience in the publishing industry in general. Enough, at least, to know that it's a marginal business at best. But really, what does that have to do with whether or not a program is helpful or not? Either it is, or it isn't. Either it helps you achieve your goals, or it doesn't. Clearly, there are a bunch of people who want the superficial or fun stuff, but most of the people on this site are digging deeper. That's all we're saying.
Not really. It seems obvious. The same reason anything goes out of print. It doesn't sell enough to justify the cost. Again, what does this have to do with whether or not a methodology is useful? You're confusing your needs with ours. As a fellow writer, I sympathize greatly. Nevertheless, I'm not going to buy something just because you're struggling, anymore than you are going to pick up my science fiction just because you feel bad for me. Either you're interested, or you're not.
Nothing compensates for real conversation in the target language. I would never argue that. Within the narrow confines of the usefulness of language programs, I agree with Heartburn's assessment as to what comprises a good course.
Haven't you pointed out below that LIYC's success is not an indicator of its quality? There are millions of people out there trying to pick up a foreign language. Most of them will never succeed.
I don't think he was criticizing the content, but the delivery. As he mentioned, this sort of thing is interesting once, but you don't want to have to listen to it again and again when you're really interested in drilling.
Absolutely. That's my only real point in the end. I find a dearth of material for someone who really wants to learn a language, and oodles of stuff that's either fluff or trying to convince people they can learn a language with little work. There's also a lot of stuff that may or may not work for other people--I have no way of knowing--but simply is not enough for me.
Once again, we're almost on the same page here. I think book or class learning is the most helpful in the initial stages. Once you can get to the fumbling with words stage, you can mostly leave the book learning behind.
This is the one area where I disagree with Heartburn, as I learn well to music. Some people find it distracting. I'm not one of them.
I found LIYC quite useful. Not because of the "in your car" gimmick, but because it got right to the point, didn't repeat itself, and covered about 80-90% of the verb forms and a fair chunk of vocabulary, and some miscelaneous grammar. Together with some book study, it gave me enough of a basis to move at least to the edge of beginner status. Obviously, that's all a course can really do for you. To go any farther, you're on your own. Best, KingM 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Malcolm Triglot Retired Moderator Senior Member Korea, South Joined 7314 days ago 500 posts - 515 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English*, Spanish, Korean Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Latin | Message 26 of 44 15 April 2005 at 5:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The purpose of this forum room is to comment on and criticize language programs. Most of us here are serious language students who have used high quality courses like Pimsleur, FSI, and Assimil. I personally have little interest in smaller introductory level courses, and I don't see why Heartburn even bothered with these when he already had what I believe to be the two best Spanish courses, Pimsleur and Platiquemos. However, for inexperienced language learners (which constitute the majority of the market), smaller courses are a good way of learning the basics without having to spend hundreds of dollars. We're talking about two different audiences which have completely different standards.
It's interesting to note that the Foreign Service Institute was only concerned with developing the maximum degree of language competence in the shortest possible time. When developing a course they did not have to ask themselves whether a 36 tape course would sell better than a 24 tape course, or if they should use music to make it seem more enjoyable for the potential buyer. These courses give results, but they are not popular because of their dry content. Stacey: I can sympathize with your position. Many of the members on this forum (myself included) have been spoiled by high budget courses that "give" you the language and only require minimal concentration and repetition. I agree with your comment that the real way to learn languages is to engage native speakers in conversation. This is how I learn, but I find it more efficient to start with courses like Pimsleur and FSI until you've learned enough basic grammar and vocabulary to have a conversation. Unless you're going between languages in the same family (e.g. Spanish to Italian), the dictionary and grammar book method is no way to learn. Everyone: As the moderator of this room, I'm required to edit or delete this thread if it gets too personal. Please choose your words carefully and refrain from attacking each other. Thank you. P.S. - I edited out four of the posts above because they were getting too personal and weren't contributing to the content of this forum in any way. If you want to have an argument, keep it objective. Edited by Malcolm on 15 April 2005 at 5:51pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| heartburn Senior Member United States Joined 7206 days ago 355 posts - 350 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 27 of 44 15 April 2005 at 8:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Malcom,
I was drawn to her program because I really do like the the LIYC course. She, herself admitted that the name of her course was a marketing ploy. And unfortunately, I fell for that ploy. Like I said earlier, if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have bothered with her course. I realized that Stacey was saying some personal things and I expected her posts to be deleted. So before I left work today, I emailed the complete text of this thread to myself. I'm looking at the deleted posts now. It's apparent that she was becoming frustrated. I'd like to think it was because she was losing this argument. After all, I wasn't the captain of my school's debate team for nothing. In any case, I realize that people will sometimes say unfortunate things when they are emotional. I was not offended. But I'm wondering why my posts were deleted. Neither of those posts made any direct reference to her. And I thought both made very important points. I consider the people in this forum my language-learning friends, and I'd hate for anyone here to think that I had crossed that boundary. Ardaschir, luke, guillaume, mtwalker and anyone else who told me I was wasting my time, You were very right. I was terribly wrong. I am the eternal optimist. I thought I could change things, but all I did was upset someone. I should have listened to you. - mark Edited by heartburn on 16 April 2005 at 2:02am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Malcolm Triglot Retired Moderator Senior Member Korea, South Joined 7314 days ago 500 posts - 515 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English*, Spanish, Korean Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Latin | Message 28 of 44 15 April 2005 at 9:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The four posts I deleted were very short and didn't contain any content that I felt was essential to the discussion. I apologize if I deleted an important point. Feel free to post it again as long as it's worded in a non-offensive manner.
I deleted these four posts not because each one had crossed the line, but rather because as a whole the argument was starting to stray from its original intention to a series of personal attacks. Maybe it hadn't reached this point yet, but it was about to. There are some good points in this thread, and I'd much rather edit it than have to throw the whole thing in the trash. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| heartburn Senior Member United States Joined 7206 days ago 355 posts - 350 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 29 of 44 15 April 2005 at 9:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Agreed. I'll put them back. If you think that they're offensive, feel free to delete them again. Edited by heartburn on 15 April 2005 at 11:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| heartburn Senior Member United States Joined 7206 days ago 355 posts - 350 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 30 of 44 15 April 2005 at 11:47pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
That's not what I'm reading.
I'm reading exactly what I've been saying here.
In fact, Stacey's review is the only one that mentions the word immersion.
Link to the Amazon product page Edited by heartburn on 16 April 2005 at 12:00am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| guillaume Pentaglot Groupie France Joined 7180 days ago 59 posts - 57 votes Speaks: French*, English, German, Spanish, Japanese Studies: Mandarin | Message 31 of 44 16 April 2005 at 12:51am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Well I don't completely believe you are wasting your time, I just think that in the context of a company publishing a language program in this time and age, it is hardly possible to have a really good language program. But I really believe that if we, as primary consumers for such language course, tried to create our own language program together and made it freely available (a bit like the free software movement or such) then we could have a really good course. I sympathize with the situation of language program creators because I know that they have to react to the market's wish and with this pressure I think it's hardly possible to really come out with something good in the eyes of most people of this forum because let's face it a very small minority of customers are like us. I'm going to look over the thread you talked about this weekend when I have more free time. Now I think it was a good idea to invite an author to those pages because it made us more aware of the problem they are facing. It would have been good if it had worked better out but well.... Edited by Malcolm on 16 April 2005 at 1:02am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Malcolm Triglot Retired Moderator Senior Member Korea, South Joined 7314 days ago 500 posts - 515 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English*, Spanish, Korean Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Latin | Message 32 of 44 16 April 2005 at 12:59am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Heartburn: I realize I wasn't being very clear, but I meant for you to post a new message with your points rather than reposting in the old slots. The problem, besides the fact that I was going to snip out those four posts, is that now it appears as though I only edited Stacey's messages and that I'm taking sides against her. Actually, I think she has some good points and perhaps in another universe she'd actually join the forum instead of looking down on it.
I think we should be sensitive to the fact the she's the author of the program, and while criticizing language materials that we don't like is okay, doing so to the author is the same as criticizing the author herself. In my experience, authors are extremely sensitive to praise and criticism. What is merely a friendly debate for you (which you may not even think about tomorrow) has probably ruined her week. Don't get me wrong, I fully support negative Amazon.com reviews (I've written a couple myself), as well as honest reviews in this forum. I just think we should be more sensitive when the author is actually present. Anyway, since the debate appears to be over, I hope we can get back to the original topic of problems with language materials in general. Edited by Malcolm on 16 April 2005 at 1:01am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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