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Timeline to developing an accent | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 73 of 100 06 April 2014 at 4:50pm | IP Logged | ||
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I don't agree with the idea of the mental representation of the word as the roadblock to pronunciation. In my
opinion, it's simply the fact that people are trying to produce a sound that is not part of their native repertoire. Therefore in the beginning - and even for a long time - they end up producing something that is only approximate because they have not yet mastered the motor skills necessary to produce the sounds. Take for example the notorious French u sound like in tutu. Many learners have a terrible time getting this right. They hear it all the time but it takes a lot of practice to get the articulatory muscles working properly for this sound. A good teacher or coach can make this easier with the right advice about lip positions and with good exercises. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5379 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 74 of 100 06 April 2014 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | ||
A lot of research I have read (particularly concerning Japanese learners of English) has concluded that the majority of mistakes are based on a false representation of sounds rather than an error in production. Of course, both are important, but it's a mistake to believe that if you get students to make all the sounds right, that there pronunciation will be perfect. This would assume that they have internalized the right sound representation for every word. In practice, when you tell students the actual pronunciation of simple and common words like "and, for, to", etc., they are surprised -- they don't actually know how these words are pronounced. Words in -tion are pronounced "shoon" with a full rounded o because they think that's how it's pronounced, not because they can't make schwa. And the list goes on. The case of tutu is probably a bit more straightforward, but you are bound to get students who mispronounce the word because they think it's pronounced with /u/ as in English. Edited by Arekkusu on 06 April 2014 at 6:24pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 75 of 100 06 April 2014 at 9:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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In this debate I think we should not confuse issues of reading aloud written words with the question of making
the right sounds. The issue of representation of sounds applies, in my opinion, more to decoding the written word than imitating sounds that one hears. For example the words nation has two very different pronunciations in English and French. French-speakers should have no problem making the sounds of the English word. All the sounds exist in French. For English- speakers the French word is a bit more challenging because of the nasal sound, but it's not that difficult. The real problem for both groups is the confusion that stems from the fact that the identical word exists in their native language. They tend to pronounce the word according to their own language. This applies as well of course to similar looking words like photograph and photographe. On the other hand, when people learn words purely orally they tend to have good pronunciation because there is no confusion arising from the written form. In fact, I think most people are quite good at imitating sounds. The problem areas will always be the sounds that do not exist in the native language but if you stay away from the written form the chances are that the pronunciation will be OK. Now what about non-Western script languages like Mandarin? Again, I don't feel it's a question of misrepresentation of sound in the mind of the speaker. I think it's more a problem of muscular articulation. The sounds are heard properly, they are difficult to produce because one has never produced them before. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7203 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 76 of 100 07 April 2014 at 12:23am | IP Logged | ||
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But a significant part of a person's internal repreesentation of the word "nation" in either language may be spelled "nation", even when not reading.
A verbal cue to repeat will of course improve pronunciation. The trickier part seems to be those sounds that do not exist in one's native language. I'm reminded of a forum member who was learning Korean and had a native girlfriend and how hard he was working on his accent. The story as he told it went something like: Her: Ka Him: Ka Her: Not ka, ka. Him, not hearing the difference between the two words she's saying: Ka Her: Not ka, ka. Him, doing his best imitation: Ka Her: Not ka, ka. Him, certain he is doing a perfect imitation: Ka Her, thinking he was a totally deaf bonehead and giggling: Not ka, ka. This repeated several more times. Edited by luke on 07 April 2014 at 12:27am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 77 of 100 07 April 2014 at 1:11am | IP Logged | ||
But in the example, is the person incapable of hearing the difference or, rather, incapable of producing the different sounds? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7203 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 78 of 100 07 April 2014 at 1:30am | IP Logged | ||
But in the example, is the person incapable of hearing the difference or, rather, incapable of producing the different sounds?[/QUOTE] In this case, apparently both. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 79 of 100 07 April 2014 at 3:21am | IP Logged | ||
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I don't think that the above example is that clear as to whether or not the person is hearing the difference. But to
come back to the issue of having an internal representation of words, if such a thing does exist, it isn't necessarily in the written form. For example nation is not necessarily stored that way. I would argue that people use primarily some form of phonological representation. How to write these forms out is another matter. People can be illiterate and speak perfectly. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5379 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 80 of 100 07 April 2014 at 4:43am | IP Logged | ||
I never implied that the mental representation is in written form. Edited by Arekkusu on 07 April 2014 at 4:43am 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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