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The dark side of language dominance

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Gemuse
Senior Member
Germany
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Studies: German

 
 Message 33 of 176
29 May 2014 at 9:53pm | IP Logged 
1e4e6 wrote:
I shall add that I fail to understand what the obsession with Anglophone
films and
television is.


Star Trek
Star Wars
Iron Man
House MD

Bigger budgets. Bigger shows.

The "obsession" that you call, is only with Hollywood. BBC shows, even big ones like Dr
Who are not as popular around the world.
2 persons have voted this message useful



Chung
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 Message 34 of 176
29 May 2014 at 10:12pm | IP Logged 
The more that I read this thread, the greater sense that I get that this is an Anglocentric linguistic variation of ideas expressed in Bruckner's The Tyranny of Guilt: An Essay on Western Masochism.

In my view, this kind of self-flagellation from some of us in the Anglosphere still leaves me feeling ambivalent (see this thread starting here where a native German speaker takes exception to Torbyrne's wistfulness (disappointment?) on the use of English in communication among groups that don't comprise native speakers of English).

As much as I've championed Uralic and lesser-studied Slavonic languages, these languages and others will continue to be relevant and viable so long as people put in the work to learn, use and/or document them. Ripping or lamenting the position of English (or whatever "big" language whose status and/or cultural/political associations irk someone) won't by default lead to the survival let alone proliferation of Cantonese, Cornish, Maya, Skolt Saami, Tahitian or any language ("small" or not) that's dear to someone.

Edited by Chung on 29 May 2014 at 10:48pm

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kanewai
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United States
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 Message 35 of 176
29 May 2014 at 10:15pm | IP Logged 
I think there are a lot less sinister reasons why English is so widespread! Or if not
less sinister, then at least not darker than any other potential world language.

One thing that English, and to a lesser extent French, offers is a ticket to a wider
world. Learning Japanese opens the doors to Japan, and learning Mandarin opens the
doors to China, but learning English opens the doors to numerous international
universities. The English-speaking colonies became powers in their own right (US,
Australia, Canada, Hong Kong, India (one of the largest middle classes in the world),
Kenya (relative to other sub Saharan countries)), which amplified the benefits for
anyone learning English.

France was certainly equally imperialist once upon a time, but her colonies never
seemed to develop into economic powers.

I'm so used to Spanish being the second language in the US that it surprises me that
it's not as common outside North and South America.   I think it could have
been, but Spain established and enforced a feudal system in the new world that lasted
centuries after it had disappeared in most of Europe. The Latin colonies remained stuck
in the past until the revolutions, so there was never much economic incentive for
outsiders to learn Spanish unless they had business in S. America.

Arabic could've been the world language - at one time Arab universities were leading
centers of arts, science, poetry, and philosophy. It's a flexible language, based upon
how fast it spread and the way it integrated and melded with the indigenous languages
of North Africa. But domination under the Ottomans, then the European colonial powers,
and then the generals & dictators knocked Arabic out of the running.

I'm not sure why Russian never spread further ... it seemed to be the second language
of choice in the Eastern bloc, and among third-world Marxists, during the Soviet era.
My impression is that Russian is now more a language for Russia rather than for the
world.

(note that these are all my amateur impressions and random thoughts, not a hard thesis
that I would argue for and defend!!!)

Edited by kanewai on 29 May 2014 at 11:21pm

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tastyonions
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 Message 36 of 176
29 May 2014 at 10:55pm | IP Logged 
Gemuse wrote:
tastyonions wrote:
But it is indeed kind of goofy that English should emerge as a universal "European" language when it is spoken natively by just one country -- and not the most populated or economically powerful one, at that.

The reason for the rise of English is not UK, but USA.

Well, yeah, I figured that the elephant on the other side of the Atlantic didn't need mentioning. :-)

Edited by tastyonions on 29 May 2014 at 10:55pm

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Bao
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 Message 37 of 176
29 May 2014 at 10:55pm | IP Logged 
Gemuse wrote:
The reason for the rise of English is not UK, but USA.

So, the US had this colonial empire which spread English across the globe?
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1e4e6
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 Message 38 of 176
29 May 2014 at 11:05pm | IP Logged 
Gemuse wrote:
1e4e6 wrote:
I shall add that I fail to understand what the obsession
with Anglophone
films and
television is.


Star Trek
Star Wars
Iron Man
House MD

Bigger budgets. Bigger shows.

The "obsession" that you call, is only with Hollywood. BBC shows, even big ones like Dr
Who are not as popular around the world.


I have never heard of the latter two. And if BBC is so unpopular, then why is it on the
television of basically every hotel wherein I have lodged around the world?

As I have said, the last time that I have seen Anglophone films was 1997, with the
Leoncardo DiCaprio and Celine Dion Titanic and Mr Bean. I felt that there are
much better things to watch if this is the best of the best of the Anglophone media.

The USA are not the dominant ones in music, how about the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led
Zeppelin, Def Leppard, the Animals, Elton John, Peter and Gordon, Wings, John Lennon,
Queen, Eric Clapton, George Michael....?

I also am fairly sure that India (British India?) did not learn English because of the
USA, I think that English already existed there before the USA were a nation.

Edited by 1e4e6 on 29 May 2014 at 11:23pm

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Gemuse
Senior Member
Germany
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Speaks: English
Studies: German

 
 Message 39 of 176
29 May 2014 at 11:17pm | IP Logged 
Bao wrote:
Gemuse wrote:
The reason for the rise of English is not UK, but USA.

So, the US had this colonial empire which spread English across the globe?


A colonial empire is not necessary.
Post world war II, with the cold war, and with its rising economic and scientific
dominance (Neil Armstrong, Unix), the marketing of the American Dream, the influence of
USA in developed countries did not require colonialization.

USD is the global currency with all its concomitant benefits (the EUR has only recently
emerged as a competitor).

POTUS is called "Leader of the free world" by americans.

Russian was taught in Russian block countries, French was taught in many EU nations,
The languages did not stick. English is actually asked for now, with Koreans going as
far as to have their kids tongues surgically altered. Because, USA.
1 person has voted this message useful



vonPeterhof
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 Message 40 of 176
29 May 2014 at 11:21pm | IP Logged 
James29 wrote:
(I don't mean school "requirements"... I mean literally forced through some sort of state punishment if they refuse).
Just a nitpick, but if those "school "requirements"" are established within a framework of compulsory education, then yes, they are literally forced through some sort of state punishment if they refuse.


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