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Lack of languages stifles Brits and USers | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Hampie Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6658 days ago 625 posts - 1009 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Latin, German, Mandarin | Message 9 of 95 09 July 2014 at 8:29am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Wait a little here, Peking isn't Beijing because the English could not pronounce it, but rather because it is based on
another Chinese variety than Putonghua. Same goes for Canton – which is almost identical to the mandarin counterpart Guandong. I'm not in any way defending the British Empires colonialism – however, the reason for Chinese cities and phenomenons having other names in English is not solely because Englishmen cannot pronounce mandarin. Peking and Beijing are the same word, the former being from a dialect of Chinese that did not undergo the palatalization of stops before i, like, say, Cantonese. Then, we should also mention that most older names uses older transcriptions and not Hanyu Pinyin but rather Wade-Giles. The professor I had in Chinese emphatically used Peking and and told the students to do the same – comparing it to us saying Rome and not Roma, Florens and not Firenze, Copenhagen and not Kopenhavn. There's nothing wrong with Peking. There's nothing wrong with Bombay. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5531 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 10 of 95 09 July 2014 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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This article is based on a couple of reports:
Languages For All Final Report This paper contains no evidence that the lack of languages is hurting anglophone countries in any major way, so I'm going to ignore it. Also, there's a larger whitepaper, but it's password protected. Languages: The State of the Nation This paper at least provides actual data suggesting that UK employers would like to see more language skills:
My reaction Frankly, I'm not convinced that speaking French is of any economic benefit to me whatsoever. I mean, I recently spent a bunch of money to attend a French startup conference in New York, and nobody was desperate for bilingual employees—except for French startups, in France, who frequently insisted that all their employees be fluent in English, because they wanted to expand into US markets and have international teams. In general, many French speakers insisted on using English as a point of pride, even when their English was actually pretty painful. In two days of panel discussions and talks, nobody on stage ever expressed a wish for US developers who spoke French. (Sure, I could move to France and try to get a bilingual job there, but about 20 different people on that stage bragged about how they only pay French programmers half as much as they do US programmers. Hmm.) Now, we've talked about this before, and we've seen studies that claim things like:
Frankly, this is consistent with the graph above: Do you see all those long lines which say "Helpful" and "Beneficial", and that little, tiny short line that says "Essential"? In my experience selling stuff to companies, nobody opens their wallets for "Helpful" or "Beneficial". They only spend real money for "Essential." If US or UK business actually needed foreign language skills, you'd see job advertisements saying things like, "25% bonus on annual salary for fluent speakers of Spanish or German." But in reality? Nobody wants language skills that badly, unless they're hiring translators. Now, I'm pretty stubborn, and given enough time, I may find or invent an opportunity to use my French skills professionally. But nobody is lining up to throw money at French speakers in the US, that's for sure. My wife is a native French speaker with excellent English, and it's never been of any professional advantage to her. So, if the US and UK are being hindered by a lack of foreign language skills, it doesn't translate into actual money for employees. Of course if you ask a hiring manager, they'll say, "It would be very nice to have bilingual employees," but they're not going to open up their wallets and pay extra. One of the first lessons of doing business is that "very nice" without actual money attached is just polite noise. Now, I'm immensely glad that I learned French, but for purely personal reasons. It has opened up a whole new world to me: talking to my wife and her family in their native language, reading great books that never got translated, and getting to see inside another culture. But nobody has ever emailed me to say, "Hey, I notice you have a bilingual LinkedIn profile, can we get a cup of coffee and talk about some stuff that we're doing?" 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5429 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 11 of 95 09 July 2014 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Although I agree with emk's observations in general, I think that it's important to add an important nuance here:
Foreign language skills are important where needed. This may sound like a tautology, but the idea is that although most people in North America will probably never in their lives have any need for knowledge of a foreign language, there are some situations where such knowledge is essential or very beneficial. The situation in Canada hardly needs mentioning. Many people have no use or need for French, but those who do know French will tell you that it has been very useful and in many cases necessary to get a job. There are all kinds of jobs in international organizations and diplomatic service that require foreign languages. My take on most of these reports on the lack of foreign language skills in the US and UK is that while the rest of the world is learning English and will be able to compete with native English-speakers for jobs, native English- speakers will be at a disadvantage in many markets because of a lack of foreign language skills. Take something like a customer service call centre. As we know there are hundreds of centres around the world that service North America and Europe in English and French and possibly other languages. How many call centres are there in North America that can service other parts of the world in languages other than English? 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4908 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 12 of 95 09 July 2014 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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There's another point Emk misses. 5% of jobs on his chart require foreign languages, over 10% say they will be needing FL skills in the near future. That means that for 15% of jobs, the person with FL skills has the edge over other applicants. Of course there are other factors: that 5% want specific languages, and they can get their applicants from the pool of native speakers (who, of course, are bi-lingual). I think the 47% "Beneficial but not required" is very significant. I never expected it to be that high. Again, for these jobs FL skills might be the difference between two applicants with otherwise similar CVs.
Emk's personal experience comes from the fact that he was already in work, and now has added language skills. I think it will make more difference for those who have solid language skills at the start of their careers. My (late) brother worked for Lufthansa, and started in middle management. English and German were both required for the position; the application process included a weekend in which they had interviews in English one day, and then a similar interview entirely in German the next day. My sister works for the EU in Brussels; they require bilingualism at the very least. And at her level they are looking for C1 or better. As a result, they have a much tougher time finding suitable candidates from the UK. To me, the significance of the article is not that everybody will need a foreign language for work. It is that knowing a foreign language can open doors, especially at the start of a career. Personally, I'm studying all my languages for myself, and I don't expect to need any of them for my career. But it is clear to me that a person just entering the job market has more options if they have foreign language skills. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5261 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 13 of 95 09 July 2014 at 3:56pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I believe this is more a matter of bottom-line economics than language skills. North Americans will never be given the opportunity to serve as cheap off-shore call center providers no matter how good our other language skills may be... because we're not cheap and the companies who contract these services out, faceless corporations, care more about their bottom lines than they care about actually helping their customers. There are more than enough people in both Canada and the US who speak every language in the world to fulfill these functions but they would have to be paid a living wage. I've spoken to American Airlines customer service agents in Trinidad (native English) and Colombia (native Spanish). My problem isn't with their language kills, it's their inability (due to lack of company permission) to deviate from a script and actually help me. Edited by iguanamon on 09 July 2014 at 4:00pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5429 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 14 of 95 09 July 2014 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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To add to what Jeffers said, I found the category "Helpful in building relations with overseas clients" (around 40%)
very interesting. This pretty much says it all. Now, for this to be relevant, you have to be in a business with overseas clients. Overseas can also mean of course transborder, as in Canada and Mexico relative to the US. Part of the issue here is the level of language skill required. Unfortunately for many North American language learners, the level of proficiency required is very high if one is expected to interact with native speakers. This is why of course many of those jobs in North America that require foreign language proficiency are filled by immigrants or heritage speakers that have the native language skills plus English (or French in Canada). It's true that large call centres are abroad for economic reasons, but customer service is a reality for most businesses. How many businesses in the US, Mexico and even much of Canada can service their Quebecois customers in French? Most take the attitude, "Well, they all speak good English." That is not always the case, but most Québécois expect to have to speak English when dealing with North American companies outside Quebec. Imagine their surprise and delight when they get somebody on the phone who speaks their own language well. This person is nearly always an expatriate native French-speaker. Those of us who have used foreign-based call centres know what a relief it usually is to deal with a native speaker of our own language 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| rdearman Senior Member United Kingdom rdearman.orgRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5235 days ago 881 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, French, Mandarin | Message 15 of 95 09 July 2014 at 4:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Funny.... I don't feel stifled.
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| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4532 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 16 of 95 09 July 2014 at 6:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I think EMK is right, in so far as it goes. It probably doesn't make a lot of difference whether you are mono- or bilingual, if you speak the dominant language of your country; especially if that language is English.
However, if you live somewhere else it makes a huge difference. I have no statistics, but my impression here in Berlin is that you have three main options for work if you don't speak German: freelancing; start-up work; or call centers. I used to work in an international program at one of the big universities. Despite English being the official language of the school I hugely upset one my colleagues when I asked if a meeting could be held in English so I could participate, rather than German. So I strongly suspect that if you speak the local language of our employer you'll accrue benefits even if they officially state that English is all you need. Edited by patrickwilken on 09 July 2014 at 6:35pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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