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Lack of languages stifles Brits and USers | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5429 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 49 of 95 11 July 2014 at 4:37pm | IP Logged | |||||
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As the discussion evolves, my conclusion is that the present language education system in the US, Canada and
maybe even the UK is not that bad after all because, in reality, most people will never need foreign language skills. For the minority who will need these skills, the elitist institutions are probably doing a reasonably good job. And immigration takes care of the more mundane needs. That said, on in individual basis, there are probably lots of interesting career perspectives for those young people who can combine good education in whatever field with high-level language proficiency. For the rest of us, language-learning is more of a hobby or passion for personal pleasure. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Fuenf_Katzen Diglot Senior Member United States notjustajd.wordpress Joined 4368 days ago 337 posts - 476 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Polish, Ukrainian, Afrikaans | Message 50 of 95 11 July 2014 at 6:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
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The reality is that most people living in the US/Canada/UK don't "need" to be able to speak other languages. When foreign languages do become necessary, the person responsible for hiring is typically able to choose a native speaker who happens to speak fluent English, and I've even found that depending on what your foreign language is, employers might not necessarily "believe" that you're fluent in it (partially because of the perception that English speakers can't learn foreign languages).
That said, I've written before about being able to use German in my job. It did provide a fairly good financial benefit; the hourly rate was almost double what it typically would have been, but it was still far below what I'm able to make as a private attorney. Every so often I'll read about how it's important for newer attorneys to have foreign language ability. It's not necessarily that I disagree, but at the same time, the level required is much different from what a lot of people will think of. I'm not even sure that heritage speakers would be able to provide legal advice without some kind of extra study. I keep saying that someday I will create my own niche area where I can use my languages, but right now it's probably safe to say that the benefits I receive from it are personal, not professional. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Stelle Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada tobefluent.com Joined 4143 days ago 949 posts - 1686 votes Speaks: French*, English*, Spanish Studies: Tagalog | Message 51 of 95 11 July 2014 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I think it's really hard to lump Canada in with the US and the UK, simply because we're a bilingual country. I grew
up in both languages, and I can tell you that every single job that I've ever gotten has been because I can speak French. And I've never lived in Quebec, nor has anyone in my family (my French Canadian roots are in Northern Ontario), so French is indeed *very* important outside of Quebec. When I was a teenager, I got summer jobs in tourism and in retail - both of which gave preference to French- speakers. My first job out of university was in a government-funded NPO that required bilingual staff. I applied to teacher's college a month before it began, because the French program in Ottawa still had open spots; most people applying to the English program were rejected out of hand months earlier because the competition was so fierce that cut-off grades were ridiculously inflated. I know that the same is true for medical school; it's much easier to get in in French because there's less competition. I've gotten full-time permanent teaching contracts in French Immersion within weeks of moving to British Columbia and Ontario, provinces where English teachers spend 7 to 10 years doing short-term contracts and competing for dwindling permanent jobs. I'm currently teaching adults in Nova Scotia, a province with an unemployment rate well above the national average. I've never been paid *more* than an English-speaker for the work that I've done. But I wouldn't have gotten the jobs at all if I hadn't been bilingual. I'm not sure how much other languages affect employability. In Canada, we have *a lot* of heritage and native speakers who speak beautiful English. Nearly 50% of the population of Toronto, our largest city, is foreign-born. If a job favours someone who can speak Arabic as a second language, it's hard for an adult starting to learn Arabic now to compete with a second-generation Canadian who grew up speaking both Arabic and English at home. edited to add: I originally said that it would be difficult for an adult French learner to compete with me, but I should specify that I was talking about in my chosen field, which is teaching French. There is *absolutely* a professional advantage to learning Canada at any age. I know professionals who have done *very well* for themselves in Toronto by serving a niche market in a particular language: a Portuguese-speaking real estate agent, a Mandarin-speaking accountant, a Korean- speaking mechanic, a Spanish-speaking plumber, a Tagalog-speaking dentist. While they provide services that are useful to anyone, the vast majority of their clients come from within a specific linguistic and cultural community of people in Toronto through word-of-mouth and personal references. Language is obviously a key part of their success; people like to receive services in their native language. But I'm not sure that someone born in Canada could learn Korean or Portuguese or Tagalog as an adult and be as successful as the native or heritage speaker within those communities, even if they reached a C1 or C2 level. It's not just about language, it's also about culture. Edited by Stelle on 11 July 2014 at 9:40pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5429 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 52 of 95 11 July 2014 at 9:18pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Stelle has said it better than I ever could. In my references to Canada, I have usually distinguished it from the US and
UK where relevant. A key observation that every young person in Canada should heed is that bilingualism does not necessarily pay more but it often makes all the difference between a job and no job. As for second-language learners competing with heritage speakers, I can only agree with Stelle. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| rdearman Senior Member United Kingdom rdearman.orgRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5235 days ago 881 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, French, Mandarin | Message 53 of 95 11 July 2014 at 9:23pm | IP Logged | |||||
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OK, well you've put me off. You're all right, there is no practical use for learning a language. Heritage speakers are better, immigrants will get all the best jobs, and if you visit a non-English speaking country they will all try to practice on you anyway. Why put yourself through the hassle and aggravation of learning a language? Hours per day, year on year?
You've all convinced me. You've made a very persuasive case. I know English, and it is all I need to know. I've wasted all this time trying to convince my children to learn another language. There is no professional or compelling reason to learn another language. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Stelle Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada tobefluent.com Joined 4143 days ago 949 posts - 1686 votes Speaks: French*, English*, Spanish Studies: Tagalog | Message 54 of 95 11 July 2014 at 9:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
This discussion is about whether or not you'll make more money by learning another language. Obviously there are compelling reasons for learning another language. Obviously anyone posting here has decided that language learning is worth a huge time investment. My whole career is based around teaching languages, so obviously I personally feel that learning languages is extremely valuable. (And, at least in Canada, learning French is *huge* for both personal and professional reasons. That's one of the reasons why the French Immersion program is growing faster than the system can keep up with, while "regular" classes are dealing with declining enrolment.) Learning Spanish has opened a thousand doors for me. It's just that none of the doors have had a giant dollar sign on them. But isn't that ok? Does everything we do have to be for money? Edited by Stelle on 11 July 2014 at 9:41pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5531 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 55 of 95 11 July 2014 at 10:16pm | IP Logged | |||||
"Because it's freaking cool, and because it will open a whole new world" isn't enough for you? :-) In this thread, people have argued: 1. US and UK companies are not desperately struggling to hire massive numbers of bilingual employees. If this really were a major national crisis, it would probably show up in salary data, or monolingual job hunters would notice the doors being slammed in their faces. Of course, maybe these companies are missing valuable opportunities. 2. Simply being "conversational" in a language increases lifetime earnings by 2–4% in the US. Heritage learners see a much bigger bonus, easily 15% or more. We haven't seen any data about the salaries of C1 and C2 speakers. 3. Heritage speakers and immigrants make up an important chunk of the bilingual workforce. 4. If you want to live in another country, learning their language can be ridiculously profitable. 5. When language skills are valuable, they tend to make the difference between not getting hired and getting hired, but they don't necessarily pay any more. (Except in the sense that "not getting hired" pays $0.) 6. Lots of people with good language skills (either C1 and up, heritage learner or native) find cool little niches. Honestly, if any English speakers in the US are learning languages purely for the money, they might want to reconsider. They could probably earn more money if they invest their time elsewhere. (Take a good negotiation class. That will add more than 4% to your lifetime earnings.) But if you want a cool job in Berlin or France or Tokyo, or if you think that languages are just plain cool, or if you want to read manga or BDs or magical realist novels, or if you want to discover the world outside the anglosphere, then go for it. And, hey, I learned in this thread that the job opportunities are better than I thought, mostly because all the studies have been focusing on "conversational" speakers. And as Khatzumoto points out:
So if you're in it for the money, don't stop at A2 or B1. If you're in it for the fun, enjoy yourself. And if you're running a economic study, please try break out earnings by skill level. :-) Edited by emk on 11 July 2014 at 10:19pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7155 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 56 of 95 11 July 2014 at 11:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't know about the rest of you but my sarcasm meter was running on high when reading rdearman.
At any rate, some better data along the lines of what emk has brought up would focus the discussion a lot better. Even the headline now seems too sensationalist for me given that it speaks of "stifling". I rather think that instead of getting figurative ladle of gravy by knowing at least one foreign language, many monoglots in the USA and UK are getting just a tablespoon of it (and that's OK for them, *gasp*) because of the sheer volume of people outside the Anglosphere who already speak enough English for everyone involved. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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