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What is your estimate of the CEFR levels? | ||
Tags: CEFR Language Levels | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5212 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 9 of 24 19 August 2014 at 3:26pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks, exactly the document I was looking for.
"Language Quality" is the part that really kills it for me and reminds me that C1 is a long way off! Fluently, spontaneously, almost effortlessly, smooth-flowing, well-structured, overcoming gaps, high grammatical accuracy: all things that do not describe my speech in any foreign language. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5014 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 10 of 24 19 August 2014 at 4:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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There is the self assessment list emk posted link to.
Then there are other detailed reference descriptions (you cannot really judge your skills based on the brief ones that can be found, for exemple, on wikipedia). -Many of them are made for one language only and by one huge institution. Cervantes published a three tome work on really detailed description of what they teach at each level. For English, you can even have a dictionary completely sorted among the levels ( http://www.englishprofile.org/index.php/wordlists ) and numerous documents on details of all four skills at each level. You can get material specific for each English exam and by various universities. I wish anything of that quality was available for French but I've been having bad luck. Well, the English teaching industry is the richest one. Another hint are coursebooks and other such material as most of the european ones tell you which cefr level they lead to. However, you usually need to take it with a grain of salt. (Most times, they lead to a lower level, which doesn't mean they don't teach it well. Sometimes, they stick to the level but it is another matter than whether they teach it well. And I even know some that teach a lot of things that are clearly more advanced. So this is not just a bash at courses ;-) ) There are numerous tests on the internet of various quality. Most of them can assess only your passive skills. But the good ones can give you a hint. Some language schools and exam organising institutions offer a service to meet an experienced teacher to judge your level or to try a mock test. Mock tests are very common. There are whole preparatory books collections, there are past papers being published and so on. So you can better prepare for the test and decide which level is most likely the one for you to aspire to. But the only way to be sure is to prepare yourself for an actual exam and take it. However, keep on mind that the exams, while being the most precise evaluation on the market, do have some limits: -your exam taking skills play a role. Depending on the exam, it may be smaller and reasonable but it may as well be enormous. There are people who get high scores by drilling the common tasks but have lower skills than people who didn't buy an expensive preparatory book and learn it by heart. -your cefr exam doesn't test all the skills from the real life. some tasks are very unrealistic, some may be too academical, some of your skills are totally irrelevant for the exam while being extremely important in reality. -it is normal to have not only better and worse days. it is normal to have various level at each skill. So, two successful candidates of DELF B2 (for exemple) may each actually have a very different skillset. Edited by Cavesa on 19 August 2014 at 5:40pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| albysky Triglot Senior Member Italy lang-8.com/1108796Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4393 days ago 287 posts - 393 votes Speaks: Italian*, English, German | Message 11 of 24 19 August 2014 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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I am probably more a pessimistic ,in fact when I first saw on youtube some C1 and C2 Cambridge
speaking exams , I was surprised because I thought that C1 /C2 was better than that , all in all I got to think that I could have performed in a very similar way . I think I am honest if I say that my English is overall in the C1 area . As for German , I also drew the conclusion that I was perhaps a bit too harsh on myself when I watched the Goethe C2 speaking exam on youtube and had a look to some sample C tests . I think I am in the C area as far as passive skills are concerned and B2 in writing and speaking . 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5537 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 12 of 24 19 August 2014 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | ||
To be fair, many native 5-year-olds have problems with effortless, smooth-flowing speech, particular if they try to tell a longer story, and not just interject a sentence or two into a conversation. And it's easy to be too hard on our own speech: I feel like I struggle a lot, and native speakers may get impatient if I try to explain something complicated, but on the other hand, I've actually had conversations with non-native French teachers where I've needed to slow down. After talking to several people here on HTLAL, I'm suspect that it's possible to pass a C1 exam without being able to meet the speaking criteria for C1 on that Council of Europe checklist. I'd like to verify this theory by sitting another French exam, but the DALF C1 requires some test-specific preparation (for things like the synthèse). The TCF looks tempting, but it's expensive. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Luso Hexaglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6066 days ago 819 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical) | Message 13 of 24 19 August 2014 at 7:50pm | IP Logged | ||
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There seems to be a bit of confusion in what relates to this topic. I believe Cavesa's post is the most enlightening one. I agree with what's on it.
Based on my experience with language learning schools and exams (proper ones, not the kind of test you do in 30 minutes on the web), here are my two cents: 1. History: with the spreading of language skills and people mobility, arose a need to standardise language knowledge measurement. If a lot of people apply to a position where language skills are needed, it's better to have some kind of official measure to start with. 2. Scope: CEFR was developed for European languages only. It's used for other languages but only because the system is actually quite simple, considering it came from the EU :P. My Arabic teacher told me several times that the system is reliable until the Bs (where in the Bs varies) for other languages, but the yardstick for Mandarin or Thai can't be the same as the one for French or Italian. 3. Ideal uses: language schools. Every big (usually nation- or university-based) certification-issuing entity (Camões, Cervantes, Alliance, Cambridge, Goethe, etc.) took it and defined exactly what it meant "to be" a C1 in French, or a B2 in Spanish, or whatever (cf. Cavesa's post). 4. Implications: along with official recognition came class structuring, manuals, exams, diplomas, etc.. I attended Goethe in Lisbon, but if I had moved to Tokyo, the manuals would have been the same, or similar. I had people from northern Europe taking exams alongside me, just because they were here on vacation. 5. Limitations: I know many people in this forum don't attend language schools, but use a variety of self-learning methods instead. I really don't know to what point these methods adhere to the standards that were derived by the certification-issuing entities. N.B.: obviously, this does not imply any kind of relative superiority of either formula. Disclaimer: Up to now, I've attended 30+ semesters of language schools (representing 5 different languages) and took 4 formal exams in 3 different ones. This post is based on that experience, and nothing more. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| rdearman Senior Member United Kingdom rdearman.orgRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5241 days ago 881 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, French, Mandarin | Message 14 of 24 19 August 2014 at 8:53pm | IP Logged | ||
You're just the sort of person I was hoping would reply! Can you expand for me on your expectations prior to taking your examinations? Did you overestimate or underestimate your ability, or were you bang on the money? Do you consider yourself a pessimist or optimist and did this effect your estimates in anyway? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5014 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 15 of 24 19 August 2014 at 10:09pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have succeeded at CAE with skills mostly taken from a text based multiplayer rpg. (like 80% from the pc game, 10% movies, books and so on, 9% grammar books 1% 8 years of English classes at school) There are various paths ;-)
Really, I've tried a lot of language schools, classes in normal schools, individual classes etc. and always came back to teaching myself as the best option. Sure, I am quite likely to get a tutor for specific purpose, should I feel the need and have the money, but you don't need to follow the designed path of the language schools in order to succeed. Cefr, while being created with the language schools' participation, isn't meant primarily as way for various language schools and institutions across Europe to compare themselves. It is a structure to compare learners of various kinds with various background, including self teaching ones. To compare them for benefit of employers and universities, mostly. The thing with the monolingual courses meant for language schools is that they more or less cover the level (or rather give you an overview of what you should learn) but don't often allow you to master the contents. Decline of grammar explanations, abandonment of some kinds of exercises (those useful but unpopular ones) etc is good for publishers wanting to make you buy separate workbooks and references as well, or at least make your teacher buy them and distribute copies in classes. Those coursebooks tend to be less suitable for self teaching students. And some of the trends in these coursebooks is much less suitable for more structure and explication needing students.than the more traditional courses. The self teaching resources tend to be less focused on the one level-one volume-one payment strategy. Many cover A1-A2 or even better A1-B1. They tend to cover their material well (I am speaking about serious courses, not those "learn perfect Klingon in three days") and try to help you master it, despite some of their flaws. Mostly, the self-teaching courses are much closer to the traditional methods even though many combine them with the new ones and the cefr required skills well. However, the main trouble comes after B1. There are few resources meant for intermediate and advanced self teaching learners because the publishers don't believe there is a market and therefore make it a circle of self-fulfilling prophecy. Therefore it is quite simple to find yourself some sort of idea or even a guide to what you need for A1 or A2. Or B1 as well. But once you're trying to figure out those B2-C1 differences, it is a totally different story. But in general, I think it is a good idea to combine class meant courses with those aimed at self-teaching students. (And lots of native input of course). One more point to applying cefr on non european languages: I've read at several places the views of Mandarin learners on the reform of their most widely known exam:HSK. It used to have its own scale and 10 or 11 levels. But the chinese realized cefr is the modern way and part of a good PR, so they reworked HSK into 6 levels, claiming them to more or less correspond to the six levels of the cefr and that the highest level of the new exam is at the same level as the highest one of the old one. However, the learners in the articles and discusssions I've read believe, that they are easier. That the highest new level is more or less B2 and much easier than the oldest highest level and blame the creators of the reform of damaging the value of the exam in order to get more money from people eager to boost their confidents with basically fake interpretation of the results. Like a teacher giving everyone awesome grades deflating their value. So, the trouble with application of the CEFR on very different languages lies not only in the real differences and difficulties of such a transfer. Marketing is partially to blame as well, just as in many other cases related to the language learning industry. Edited by Cavesa on 19 August 2014 at 10:10pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Luso Hexaglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6066 days ago 819 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical) | Message 16 of 24 19 August 2014 at 10:13pm | IP Logged | ||
Oh, there's not a lot of room for mistake, unless you want to throw some 150 Euros (and a piece of your ego) out the window. When you are attending classes and go beyond the 'A' levels, the teachers usually ask who's thinking of taking an exam and, if relevant, which one. I took my German B1 exam upon finishing the respective level, but only took the B2 when I was halfway through C1, I think. I took my CPE exam in '96. The last month of classes was grueling: essays and more essays, downplaying strong points, focusing on weaknesses, etc. Back to German, and since most people don't take the exams, the teachers usually assign more homework to the interested people, align the class tests with the exam's format, etc. There are also exam manuals available (with CDs): they guide you through each step, give you tips for your essays, how to tackle each section ("before reading the text, go through the questions for key words", or whatever), how to listen the first time and the second one, and so on. I also took the GMAT and TOEFL exams, some ten years ago. It was unthinkable to go to GMAT without purchasing the big book and doing the exercises within. Of course, things can go wrong. Sometimes, the recording has people with accents that are hard for you, or your mind wanders off for a bit. In my German B2 exam, for some reason, I didn't know a few key words in the dialogue and I missed a couple more, since the recording was not very clear. I knew there was a second opportunity to hear it but, since you have to pass each section of the exam, the stakes were high. I remembered the exercises, listened carefully, did the ones I knew and took a couple of educated guesses (well, sort of). It was an improbable worst case scenario and it ended well. So, it does not make a lot of difference whether you are an optimist or a pessimist. If you prepare well, you'll be equipped to deal with, say, 90% of what the exam will throw at you. You'll also have a technique to tackle the remaining 10%. When you know what to expect, everything gets easier. You just never expect the Spanish Inquisition. Nobody does. :P Edited by Luso on 19 August 2014 at 10:27pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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