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Is C2 possible without a tutor ? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4536 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes  Studies: German | Message 17 of 144 11 December 2014 at 9:22am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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@Cavesa Nice post!
What your checklist really emphasizes to me is that the C2 exam is not a test of average native ability, but more of university-educated native level ability. Afterall there is a large segments of most Western countries. like the USA, that are functionally illiterate, and would have no chance at passing the written parts of even the C1, let alone C2, tests.
I have marked lots of essays and can assure you that many native speakers at the start of university would struggle to pass C2 according to these criteria. Edited by patrickwilken on 11 December 2014 at 2:03pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6154 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 18 of 144 11 December 2014 at 9:45am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Cavesa, brilliant post. You’ve captured exactly the issue I was trying to describe.
That’s exactly the intention of C2. It’s meant to correspond with the language level of an educated native speaker which seems to mean university educated. As Cavesa mentions, the CAE doesn’t seem as university orientated as the DELF or DELE. At this level, most native speakers in French or Spanish would struggle with some of the vocabulary. E.g. C2 Spanish means your meant to know the irregular plural of hipérbaton (hyperbaton) is hipérbatos. A lot of Spanish speaker wouldn’t even know the meaning of hipérbaton, as would a lot English speakers struggle with hyperbaton. A tutor at this level shouldn’t need to use your native language for instruction. It would be particularly bad if they did. The tutoring they would give should be the same as that given to a native speaker. However, they might also highlight specific errors that are language specific. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 19 of 144 11 December 2014 at 1:51pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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As has been rightly pointed out, the CEFR exam system at the C2 level has a distinctly academic bias
and is certainly not meant to measure native ability in a language. But we shouldn't get carried away. There are differences between exams but but to my knowledge, in most CEFR tests, such as the DALF and the DELE one has to pass all the sections but that passing grade can be between 50 and 60% or equivalent. There's a fair amount of leeway, so you don't absolutely have to know what hyperbaton means. That said, it seems clear from the discussion that under the right circumstances, a tutor is not necessary to reach such a C2 level. If you are studying in the language, living in the country and have lots of interaction with native speakers, this should not be a problem. The real problem is what to do when the circumstances are not ideal. Many of us do not have the occasion to write or speak regularly in the target language with native speakers. This is why there is a danger of overestimating one's ability. Note that I had written people "often overestimate their ability" and not "always overestimate their ability". You may have read thousands of pages and listened to hundreds of hours in your target language, but that will not guarantee that what you write or say will be perfect. Good writing and speaking comes from lots of practice and lots of correction. And therein lies the problem. You can't correct yourself. You may think that you are right, but there is nothing like the opinion of an external eye or ear. University professors may be very good in a foreign language such as English but I am quite certain that most will have their writing looked at by a trustworthy native reader before sending something off for publication. And all publishing houses have in-house editors whose job is to polish the writing of authors. Here I think it's important to emphasize the difference between a professional tutor and a conversation partner. A good tutor is a language specialist who will proactively work with you with exercises, lesson plans and suggestions. A conversation partner is great for shooting the breeze and helping you develop fluency. Edited by s_allard on 12 December 2014 at 12:07am 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4625 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 20 of 144 11 December 2014 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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So can you be native-like but not C2?
If an "average Joe" moves abroad and speaks totally fluently on the streets after 30 years of immersive residency, that must equate to the abilities of many native speakers. My second cousin left school at 16 with no major qualifications and went straight into the army. He was posted to Germany where he married a local girl and 35 years later he's still there. As far as I'm concerned he is native-like in German and speaks in rapid-fire fashion with locals. Yet he's never had a higher education and most probably couldn't pass a formal C2 test. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4536 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 21 of 144 11 December 2014 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Sure. Why not? There are lots of natives who are functionally illiterate. They are native speakers, just not very good ones. Having said that I also suspect that there are lots of university students who would struggle with the C2 exam - and their language abilities in most situations are very good. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4625 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 22 of 144 11 December 2014 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I don't mean functionally illiterate. I mean the ability to use the language as well as an average member of the the population. Only a small percentage of people actually have a university education and you can be totally competent at reading, writing and speaking without having done a thesis. I think that's a more realistic goal for many learners. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4536 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 23 of 144 11 December 2014 at 4:01pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
But when 20%-30% of the population is functionally illiterate "average" is probably not what you want to aim for either. My guess is what most people want to achieve (if possible) is the equivalent level in their L2 as their L1 - though of course time, opportunity etc may make this goal unrealistic. I don't actually want to speak better in my L2 than I do my L1, but I also don't want to speak worse. Whether this level is C1, C2, or the secret C3-level is sort of irrelevant. ----- I do sort of wonder from this discussion whether an effective strategy to get to C2, is to sit some sort of (online) course, perhaps in the humanities, where you have to read, write, and get feedback on essays you write in your L2. Edited by patrickwilken on 11 December 2014 at 4:03pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4625 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 24 of 144 11 December 2014 at 4:43pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I find it hard to believe that one in every three or four people are functionally illiterate. Sure, there will always be a minority who struggle with basic reading and writing but I would have put it at less than 10% 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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