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Is C2 possible without a tutor ? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 41 of 144 13 December 2014 at 12:22am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I certainly agree with emk and patrickwilken on this. A small nuance I would add is to replace point 2 with: 2. Study and work professionally using that language. I think that receiving instruction in the language, i.e. acquiring knowledge or skills through the medium of the language, makes a huge difference and is something that we see very often. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4536 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 42 of 144 13 December 2014 at 10:53am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Studying abroad is a fantastic way of improving your language, especially if you are in a situation where most people won't/can't speak your L1. It's pretty standard advice for German students who are interested in academic careers to do a masters in the UK, as English is so important for academic work. It doesn't have to be English though, my wife did one year of her Masters studying in Naples, and quickly found out that no-one other than the head of her lab spoke English, and she needed to pick up Italian pretty fast if she wanted to survive. I have two questions: 1. Can language tuition ever replace this sort of immersive experience? I have no doubt professional tutors can take you a long way, but can they really take you to C2, and not, say, C1+? 2. Is C2 really native equivalent? I call a few people I know "C2" because they are essentially indistinguishable in their L2 from L1-native speakers.All of them have followed essentially the path EMK mapped out, but perhaps their level is significantly higher than what is necessary to pass the C2 exam. In which case perhaps language tuition can get you to a level where you can pass the C2 exam, but not to this near-native level. Edited by patrickwilken on 13 December 2014 at 12:16pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 43 of 144 13 December 2014 at 3:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I certainly don't have definitive answers for these questions. Here is an opinion regarding question 1. Tutoring cannot replace the immersive experience of studying in the language. They are worlds apart. Just think what it means to spend a year studying at a university in your target language. If we think in terms of a typical North American academic year of 8 months and 5-6 classes a week, just in terms of listening, that's around 15 hours a week of sophisticated academic language. And I haven't mentioned the hundreds of pages of readings, the many pages of writing and the hours of conversation and discussion with fellow students. There is no way that all the self-study in the world and a professional tutor twice a week or even daily can reproduce this. That said, could one attain the necessary skills to pass the C2 exam despite not having the immersive experience but with help of a good tutor? I hope and pray so, because that's what I'm trying to do. But prayer and hope are not enough. In my opinion, it's doable when you approach the whole thing as an exercise in exam preparation. For the receptive or passive tests, that is certainly not too huge a problem. The real challenge is the writing and the speaking. It goes without saying that the basic strategy is to write and speak as much as possible with deliberate orientation towards the exam. In this regard, I have argued here ad nauseam that it is strategically more useful to demonstrate great mastery of a small number of units, i.e. words, rather than trying to learn everything. When you look at the contents of the C2-level criteria, it can be overwhelming. Basically, it seems you have to know everything. I disagree. Obviously, you have know a hell of a lot. But do you really have to master all the grammatical intricacies of the language? Will you use all those 30,000 words that you are learning? The answer, in my opinion, is no. The essay you have to write may only be 1,000 words long. You will discuss and debate for around 30 minutes. What you have to demonstrate is control and sophistication. This means a) very few mistakes, especially with the basic stuff, b) highly idiomatic usage, c) great fluency i.e. little hesitation and stuttering, d) very good pronunciation and e) the ability to render nuances of meaning. With reference specifically to speaking, my goal is to be able to do an interview similar to what I see on television. Just recently, I was listening to an interview with Malcolm Gladwell and I said to myself, "If I could speak like that in Spanish, I won't have problem." It's easier said than done of course. Edited by s_allard on 13 December 2014 at 6:16pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5012 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 44 of 144 13 December 2014 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I think there is one major reason why getting a tutor is not an automatic choice and
that is bad experience. Unfortunately, many tutors are bad or just not capable enough to guide advanced learners, just as most class teachers are bad or just incapable to teach advanced students. It is always a risk. Getting a tutor and going abroad for a year, those are two options that could lead to C2 but with no guarantees in either of these cases. Not all tutors are good. And C2 is not where most foreign exchange students end up. Yes, they learn fast (I learnt a lot during just one month of such immersion in an enviroment where I had to use Spanish, I wish I could go for at least half a year), but most get to the sufficient level and stay there, especially in skills which are not that vital for their tasks. That may be anywhere from B2 to C2, from what I've witnessed so far. No, C2 level is different from native level and having C2 level in all skills is different from getting a C2 certificate (which, as s_allard correctly mentioned, does leave you some room so you don't have to be perfect at everything). It was already discussed ad nauseam elsewhere but the formal tests do not include some skills the natives surely have and most learners strive for, while on the other hand, they include some academic tasks which would be irrelevant and difficult for many natives. A C2 speaker may be native like in many aspects but there are still going to be some differences, unless they really become nativelike as well culturally by long term living in the country, in my opinion. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4668 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese | Message 45 of 144 13 December 2014 at 8:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think I was not terribly clear. Right now my TL level isn't very high, so many of the things that crop up during my tutorials are things that I could fix myself with just a few years of exposure. I'm certainly not yet at the level where I could write a business letter and take it to a tutor to be polished. So right now my weekly tutorial provides me with an incentive to work through whatever textbook chapter we're on, and it gives me an opportunity to ask about all those things I've come across in the week that didn't make sense and so on. Or I can change direction for a few weeks and work through a novel or tackle some of the (for me) harder reading exercises in a book or whatever. As I (hopefully improve) then the nature of the tutorial will change (as I'm paying I pretty much get to decide :-)). 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| robarb Nonaglot Senior Member United States languagenpluson Joined 5062 days ago 361 posts - 921 votes Speaks: Portuguese, English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, French Studies: Mandarin, Danish, Russian, Norwegian, Cantonese, Japanese, Korean, Polish, Greek, Latin, Nepali, Modern Hebrew | Message 46 of 144 14 December 2014 at 3:09am | IP Logged | ||||||||
You won't get to C2 simply through studying for more years, but the above list could be converted into a Stay- At-Home Version: 1. Have a good reason to spend many thousands of hours mastering that language, even though you won't be living somewhere where it's spoken. 2. Study the language with great dedication, regularly, for multiple years. 3. Read and listen voraciously and widely using that language. 4. Make friends, practice partners, or professional contacts in person or online who you speak to using that language. Speak with them regularly and extensively. 5. Give it about 5-10 years. 6. Be reasonably lucky about things like fossilization. Compared to the person who moves, you'll have holes in things like uncommon, boring items no one ever talks about, and cultural practices that only make sense when you're immersed in the society. Your probability of success will be lower than the scenario where you move, but if you actually have the motivation to follow through and do things like replace the majority of your media consumption with the target language and speak it with people multiple times a week for decades, it can be done. One reason it's rarely done staying at home is hardly anyone has that level of motivation for a language other than the one they primarily use. But hey, C2 doesn't mean you equal a native speaker. There might even be cases of especially talented learners reaching it without moving, and with somewhat less effort than I described here. Edited by robarb on 14 December 2014 at 3:19am 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 47 of 144 14 December 2014 at 2:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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In my observation, the vast majority of people who speak a foreign language really well, i.e. with great
accent and good idiomatic usage, have studied in the language in the country of the language and at a relatively young age. Typical examples are young Asians who come to North America for their high school or university education. There are many variations of this model. For example, all around the world there are English-language or bilingual schools where young people get some form of immersion in the language. In Canada, hundreds of thousands of youngsters are in immersion French. Whatever form exposure takes, the fundamental idea is that active or productive interaction with the language at the earliest possible age is the key to good results. This is probably easier and certainly more fun in the country of the language but certainly can be accomplished to some extent without moving, as has been pointed out. Other posters have pointed out the differences between C2-level certification and native proficiency. The former is a formal exam that measures certain specific skills that correspond more or less, in my opinion, to around a year of university education. Native proficiency encompasses a vast range of language skills but is characterized particularly by native pronunciation, mastery of different registers including notably slang and informal language, vast cultural and social knowledge encoded in the language, and formal and technical vocabulary that reflect one's formal education and occupation. For those people who are interested in passing a C-level examination for whatever reason the fundamental question is what is the best preparation strategy. Yes, it is true that a tutor or spending time in the country are not guarantees of success. There are many bad tutors. And you could end up wasting your time in the country. On the other hand, what are the alternatives? If you look at the requirements for C2-level success, there is no way you can do that on your own. How can you develop good writing skills if you don't write regularly and have your writing corrected? How can you expect to make an oral presentation and engage a serious discussion with the examiners if you haven't practiced doing this? Anyone who has worked with a good tutor - and I emphasize the word good - will say that this has made a huge difference, especially for speaking, and particularly when one is not in the country of the language. Edited by s_allard on 14 December 2014 at 4:40pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6600 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 48 of 144 14 December 2014 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
It's not surprising that out of those living abroad, the best are the ones who moved there young and got a degree. (and from what I know, Canada is one of the easiest countriest for entering university as a foreigner) What about those not living in the country though, or even those who got their education in L1 and didn't have to repeat it to work abroad? Your sample is biased.
By reading and paying attention to the structures and collocations native speakers use. Also lang-8.
By taking an exam that doesn't require a presentation :) If you can already speak well or at least write well (see the previous point), you can also practise this at home, telling presentations to your pet or soft toys, just like people do in L1. Or even to a family member (who doesn't speak L2), which would be similar to rehearsing an academic presentation in front of someone who's not familiar with the subject. Edited by Serpent on 14 December 2014 at 8:32pm 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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