|
 |
Is C2 possible without a tutor ? | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4710 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 49 of 144 14 December 2014 at 9:15pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
C2 is just a test. You use a tutor for a test because you want to pass the test. But I
don't want to pass a test, I just want to function properly as a human being. Is C2 possible without a tutor? Probably, it is. But C2 is about the exam you're going to sit and having someone familiar with the process to sit you through it is simply a very clever idea. However, we're equating C2 with native-level proficiency and those are just two different things. I can be completely academically functional and not understand much slang at all, and slang is just as valid a means of expression. Your skill set depends on what your environment requires of you. I do not need to sit a C2 exam in French to tell me that I speak French, because when I'm out doing it that validates my position. Same for everything else I've ever done. I wouldn't mind sitting a few exams, but it's all CV bolstering and nothing more. 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5012 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 50 of 144 14 December 2014 at 10:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
Firstly, Serpent got right the catch of the given exemple. Yes, the young people who
move abroad and live there for years, those are likely to become nativelike as has already been mentioned in the thread and elsewhere a thousand times. But vast majority of students going abroad for a year doesn't become nativelike and many are quite far from C2 in many areas (common troubles being: native language bubble despite all the good intentions, not leaving the comfort zone once they perfect their language skills in the areas most relevant to their daily lives etc). Those are two separate groups of people. Of course you can improve your writing to the required level without a tutor. I did. First of all, you can correct most mistakes if you just wait with the correction for a few days. And when it comes to the style and writing genres, you need to read a lot, and you can even get relevant feedback in a more natural setting (a fan fiction writing group, pen pals,...) As was already pointed out, all the C2 concept is a matter of examinations and quite specific tasks, not a description of nativelike proficiency. Therefore a significant part of your result lies in preparation from mock tests, past papers, preparatory courses, observation of example essays and so on. People often take a preparatory class, they are disappointed because they do not practice speaking and writing enough, they do mostly the things you could easily do on your own there (the fill in the gaps exercises, listening practice etc.). Almost all those I've spoken with described their experience like: "I didn't need the class or the teacher, I just needed the coursebook." Obviously, they didn't get all the valuable tutoring services imagined by some htlalers but they still passed. And they were speaking about various exams from B1 to C2. Really. I would be interested to see a statistics showing the ways candidates have been preparing themselves for the exam. I think some organisations question you on the matter when you're signing up for the exam (Alliance francaise does, if i remember correctly) but I haven't found any results online so far. I believe large part of the C2 candidates comes without having a tutor. There are people who have lived in the country and have been self-studying from a preparatory coursebook for the exam. There are people from preparatory classes. There are other options as well. I highly doubt those with their own tutor are a majority. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4668 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese | Message 51 of 144 15 December 2014 at 12:21am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I've never seen any statistics either, but the interesting part (for me) would be the pass rates for candidates with and without tutors. Of course, most candidates who pass C2 have spent multiple years working towards it, so you'd probably need an estimate of the number of study hours and the number of tutorial hours for these numbers to be of much help. As an aside, would you count services like lang-8 as "tutorial"? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7208 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 52 of 144 15 December 2014 at 12:23am | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
The original question could be restated, "Is a tutor 'the silver bullet'"?
The silver bullet idiom comes from werewolf mythology, but can be used generally to mean the one thing that will kill the beast in question. Here, we're talking about at least three different beasts with some common characteristics. 1) The C2 examination beast. 2) A self-assessed C2 - the general proficiency that someone who passed the examination has demonstrated before a panel of judges. 3) The "personal" C2. Being able to do anything whatever you realistically want to do within the language. This probably doesn't involve taking examinations. E.G. Someone who want to watch, understand, and comfortably discuss a TV series in detail Or, someone who wanted to read, listen to, and intelligently discuss books. If the people who help you are doing it for fun or language exchange, are they tutors? Perhaps, but if we limit the term tutor to a credentialed person you pay, then, are the various C2 usages above are possible without forking over your dough? Why not? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5012 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 53 of 144 15 December 2014 at 12:27am | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
Depends on the service, I think there are more kinds of services on lang-8, just as there
are more on italki. A tutor you meet over skype is still a tutor, a community of native speakers giving you writing corrections of various quality and without any constant bonds between you and a speaker or two, that is not "tutorial", in my opinion. Well, the pass rates would be of course a useful part of such a statistics. However, even the percentages of candidates with each prevailing background would suffice, in my opinion, as the success rates in general are high. The examination costs too much for people to just try. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6600 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 54 of 144 15 December 2014 at 12:33am | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
YKI also asks. I was proud to mark learning only on my own and while travelling. One of the people had one Finnish-speaking parent (in the USA) and had been in the army in order to retain his citizenship. I don't think he did much serious learning, but then again I'm not sure whether he passed even C1. Seemed to have a very low level of "learner's intuition" and probably no experience with actually learning a language he didn't get for free. That said, he was pretty good and unless his reading/writing are much worse than his speaking, he probably got C1.
I'm not sure this thread was exclusively about being able to pass C2 exams btw? Edited by Serpent on 15 December 2014 at 12:38am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 55 of 144 15 December 2014 at 2:24am | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
I don't see what there is really to discuss about the utility of a professional tutor or coach. A good
coach or tutor is a wonderful resource, but is obviously not for everybody. A tutor is not recommended for people in the following situation: 1. They feel confident in their ability to correct their own writing and speaking. 2. They do not have specific language tests, interviews examinations to pass in the foreseeable future. 3. They have no need to develop conversational skills with native speakers. 4. They have access to equivalent resources for free. 5. They cannot afford the cost. On the other hand, a tutor or coach would be highly recommended for the following people: 1. They have a specific language examination or test on the horizon. 2. They feel that as learners they are unable to efficiently correct their own speech and writing. 3. They want to develop conversational skills with native speakers. 4. They do not have access to these equivalent resources for free. 5. They feel the cost can be justified. All I'm really saying is that if you feel you can do without a coach or tutor then go right ahead. You will save time and money. Where I live, many people have to sit language tests for professional reasons. It could be a job interview or to obtain a licence to practice a profession such as medicine, law, architecture, engineering, etc. No pass, no licence, no job. It boggles my mind to think that somebody whose professional future depends on a language test would not take the advantage of the services of a professional who is familiar with all this and can help one prepare. If you have to pass a language test for university admission for a year abroad, wouldn't you prepare for this? You could just buy a book, which may be enough, but why not use professional services? Would I send off a professional letter in Spanish without first running it by my tutor? No way. As good as my writing in Spanish is, I don't feel totally comfortable not having it checked. The simple reason is that every piece I have written so far has contained mistakes. The day that I can consistently write without mistakes that I catch myself will be the day that I can start doing without a tutor. Similarly, I have a hard time understanding why someone would not want to speak with a native and have one's pronunciation, grammar and vocabulary corrected. How can I improve if no one corrects me? There is no shame in using outside help. Athletes, actors, musicians and many people have coaches or tutors. Authors have editors. Every newspaper or magazine article is read by at least three different people to catch mistakes and make improvements. I hope I'm not coming across as a shill for tutoring services. I agree that it is not for everyone, and it does cost money. All I'm saying is that for some people it can make a huge difference. Edited by s_allard on 15 December 2014 at 4:20am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6600 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 56 of 144 15 December 2014 at 3:45am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Can be done with friends, and I personally value that much higher. Of course eventually a tutor can become your friend too, but there will still be this awkward power dynamic. I personally don't feel like a non-friend can really understand me well enough to help with the advanced things. I mean the understanding that goes beyond the obvious meaning.
By getting non-explicit or non-professional corrections and by noticing things that you wouldn't say quite as elegantly as native speakers do.
Doctors generally don't. Made me think of this article, posted on HTLAL at some point I think. The difference with athletes etc is that nobody was more or less born into the skill in question. They have been taught, and now they teach others. It's a natural continuation. Often you need to pay a significant sum just to be able to imitate them closely. Language learning is different from that, though. It's much more democratic and has completely different dynamics. Everything apart from the pronunciation is trivial to imitate. Time is possibly a higher guarantee of success than in other areas. Fellow language geeks are priceless. The only person who can compete with what I can or could get from HTLAL is Zlatan Ibrahimović :) Edited by Serpent on 15 December 2014 at 4:17am 5 persons have voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
