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Is C2 possible without a tutor ? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 57 of 144 15 December 2014 at 4:34am | IP Logged | |||||
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For those people who see potential value in using the services of good tutor, the problem is finding a
good one. It's not easy to find the good fit. First of all, it is important to determine your needs. Actually, many people just need a conversation partner, someone that you can chat with and will correct your speaking. A professional tutor or coach, on the other hand, has more advanced skills or resources, including: 1. Familiarity with the tests or exams if this is important. 2. A university degree. 3. Some background in linguistics and possibly with a specialty in the target language. 4. Good experience teaching the language to foreigners. 5. Access to resources such as lesson plans and handouts for the student. 6. Preferably good knowledge of the L1 of the learner. I would add of course that issues of gender, age and personality can enter into the picture. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7208 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 58 of 144 15 December 2014 at 10:19am | IP Logged | |||||
This is one of the qualities of a great coach described in the article:
Edited by luke on 15 December 2014 at 10:20am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5012 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 59 of 144 15 December 2014 at 10:55am | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't agree with half of that definition of a good tutor.
-University degree? Well, my tutor has got a university degree in law, is that still relevant? And there are other teaching qualifications than the university ones available, even though many older and very experienced tutors may not have those either. These tutors just come from times when you didn't have to be superspecialized from early age, could just change career etc. -the good knowledge of the learner's native language is surely a plus when teaching a beginner but I don't think it's necessary at the higher levels. Quite all the exam preparation courses in the native country count on total immersion and the teachers cannot have knowledge of the students' native language, unless they are come from the anglosphere. Obviously, the immersion, the preparatory exercises and mock tests and the teachers are a mix that works for many students, despite having some pitfalls. -And the lessson plans and handouts: I've noticed over the years that it is often better not to get any more handouts and stick to one good quality resource instead. -About other things like experience and knowledge of the exam, there can be no discussion. I agree with Serpent that you can develop the speaking skills without a tutor. I don't like the condescending tone like "who with half a brain would refuse to pay a tutor? that is THE way to speak". No, it is by far not the only way. After all, this whole forum is based on plurality of approaches, vast majority of population believe in the same manner that going to language school for years is the only way to learn a language. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 60 of 144 15 December 2014 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I find this debate a bit surreal. If I understand correctly, one poster who seems to be so adamantly
against tutors actually uses one. This same poster lambastes the idea the tutor should have a university degree but tells us that their tutor has one. Go figure. Let me set the record straight, if that is at all necessary. I strongly believe that a good tutor is a very valuable resource for the language learner, especially at an advanced level, and for all the reasons that I have given. And specifically for exam preparation. Do I think everybody should have a tutor? NO! If you can do just as well without one, then there is no reason to use one. If you can develop speaking skills without a tutor, be my guest. If you are confident in your ability to write in your target language without having someone go over your writing, then a tutor is not for you. And as for the money, it's pretty simple: good professional tutoring is not cheap. If you can't afford it, you can't afford it, end of story. But it's also a question of the perceived value for the learner. Frankly, if I had an interview in Spanish for a prestigious job with an international organization based in Madrid, I would invest in a couple hours of tutoring because I believe that would make a difference. For that same reason, I would have my professional correspondence with that organization checked by my tutor. This is not an expense; it's an investment in yourself, and with great returns. Edited by s_allard on 15 December 2014 at 2:36pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4710 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 61 of 144 15 December 2014 at 2:23pm | IP Logged | |||||
You did not understand correctly. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4668 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese | Message 62 of 144 15 December 2014 at 3:28pm | IP Logged | |||||
It surely depends on how much the language test costs and how long you have to wait before trying again. If it's going to cost maybe 20 hours of tutoring and I can retake in a short enough time-frame that it's not going to interfere with my career, then, assuming I felt sufficiently confident, I'd wing it and try without.
Because where I come from, students prioritise beer above tests until crunch-time really arrives. Given the choice between paying to do work and using the money for beer (or whatever the current form of entertainment might be), I can guess which way they would go. Now if you'd said an employee who needs to speak a language to do his jib, that's easier. You'd get the tutoring (but you'd make sure that it's paid for by the company that will benefit from it). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 63 of 144 15 December 2014 at 4:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Since we've seen pretty much all the pros and cons of tutoring, I thought I'd talk briefly about the
experience of using a tutor. Even though my current Spanish tutor is not actually as professional as I would like, the experience has been great. Here are four highlights of my experience of meeting once a week over Skype for over six months. 1. The number one thing is error-correction. I thought my writing and speaking were good, but I had a serious reality check. It's not as if the situation was totally bad, it's just that I had never really spoken sophisticated formal Spanish for any length of time. None of the words were actually new to me, it's just that I had rarely had the opportunity to use them. One of the things we did was a form of shadowing and role-playing where, using an interview in Spanish that I had recorded and transcribed, I would act out the role of the person being interviewed. This way I could imitate the sounds of the recording that I had in my head. Every week at least half of our time is spent correcting and discussing my writing. I have seen a dramatic improvement in my writing skills because we have eliminated many of the basic mistakes and, very importantly, I've developed a repertoire of forms and patterns that I'm comfortable using. It's not that I'm not making mistakes; it's just that I no longer feel that writing is the daunting task that it used to be. 2. Once the major errors are out of the way, we can concentrate of speaking style. It has been great to observe my tutor's speaking. I look at how things are said and try to imitate them. This has done wonders to my ability to have actual conversations because I feel more comfortable interacting because now I know what to say spontaneously. 3. Much improved confidence and self-esteem. This is pretty much a no-brainer. With this kind of practice, I feel that I can handle nearly any situation. I'm far from perfect but I think for example that I could handle something like a simple radio interview because that is precisely one of the things that we have been working on. 4. Lots of current cultural and social information. This is pretty straightforward. We can read a newspaper article online and discuss the news of the day. I would also add here information about regional and cultural differences of word usage. I love all of this, and I think that it makes me a far better and confident speaker of Spanish. But then again, this is not for everyone. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5012 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 64 of 144 15 December 2014 at 4:32pm | IP Logged | |||||
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As usual, S_allard didn't understand correctly, I am not sure who to write even more
clearly though. -Yes, I use a tutor and I constantly question myself whether it was a good investment. I am certainly learning useful things but I am highly unsure how relevant it all is for the exam. However, the tutor prepared the students in past for the exam so I just hope it will all work out somehow and I continue my other preparatory activities. In general, my writing is getting slightly better but I had to do the most important "discovery" on my own. (The discovery was a precise definition of the required genres for the exam and what was the main difference between my writing and the requirements) -University degree. In near future, we well need to have a degree to use a screwdriver or wash our hands. Really, this obsession with degrees is ridiculous. The more that vast majority of the degrees is totally irrelevant (and part of the degrees comes from low quality private schools these day, the absolvents are often very stupid and the degree can't change it). Yes, degree in linguistics or language teaching could make a difference but how does a degree in law or engeneering or whatever make someone a better tutor? Really, s_allard's argument makes no sense here. On the other hand, there are many older tutors who have decades of experience but no degree, are they any worse just for not owning such a piece of paper? The topic raised in this discussion is very relevant and reflects on the basic question: what are the good ways to atain a c2 level and subsequently prepare oneself for a cefr exam. Nothing surreal about it. Unfortunately, there is always the one charming person who dances on the very edge of making sense, and being polite with those who do not agree, whenever a similar topic arises but without ever having mentioned their own experience with a single cefr exam. So, go figure. :-D I think I'll return to this thread in February or March and I'll let you know first hand the experience with my DALF (yes, I seriously consider going for C2 instead of the originally planned C1) and how much or little of a help will the tutor have been. Anyone else is right now preparing themselves for a high level cefr exam? 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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