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Moving from B2 to C2 | ||
Tags: Advanced Level | Learning Strategy | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Sterogyl Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4369 days ago 152 posts - 263 votes  Studies: German*, French, EnglishC2 Studies: Japanese, Norwegian | Message 89 of 177 20 February 2015 at 9:18pm | IP Logged | |||||
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The recipe for selling a language method: Make an attention-getting claim (e.g. 'you can learn a language without any swotting!' (Krashen), 'You can learn a language in 1 day' (100s of language methods on the market), build a framework around that claim based on some shady "research" ('the silent phase: only speak after X hours of input!') and there you go.
People always tried to sell shortcuts to language learning, even thousands of years ago (according to one of my former language professors). That's nothing new. People always wanted to learn and master foreign languages and they always had a more or less hard time achieving their goal. There are no shortcuts, it just takes time and effort. The process can be accelerated by more effort, but that's about it. Provided you use intelligend methods, that is. Input only without any further explanation in terms of grammar and so on is not one of them, except for the very basic levels. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5432 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 90 of 177 20 February 2015 at 9:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
Although I think this is a rather silly question, in my opinion this is a no-brainer. I would go with 1000 hours of Skype tutoring - ouch, think of the cost. Let's say two hours a day. That would be pure language learning heaven. A lot of time could be spent reading aloud in the company of the tutor. And discussing things that we have just read. Then there's all that speaking and writing. But the fundamental question remains: what are your goals? If speaking and writing are the goal, tutoring wins hands down? Edited by s_allard on 20 February 2015 at 9:32pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6599 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 91 of 177 20 February 2015 at 10:21pm | IP Logged | |||||
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1000 hours with the same tutor is a waste of money. I go for 700 hours of listening (to DIFFERENT native speakers, including commentators, actors in TV shows etc) and 300 hours of reading.
And Krashen isn't a shortcut. If anything, tutors are a shortcut. I prefer a silent period mostly because I consider it pointless to start speaking before I can understand more or less everything I need. Tutors can get you to speak before you can read and watch TV, but what's the point for an average learner without a deadline? 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4292 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 92 of 177 20 February 2015 at 11:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Are we assuming that money is no issue? Obviously living in country for years, even
more than a decade would be conducive to achieving C2 more efficiently, but I am not sure that that is what is to be assumed. I honestly wonder how many people can afford that, plus tutouring on a weekly basis, plus formal instruction (if they even wanted it), plus the accommodation and other financial necessities just to get from B2 to C2, although the time required is much less than from an A level to C2. It would sure be conducive to spend 10 years in the country, have a spouse who speaks the target language, and even if the person wants, a tutour and formal classes at the official institutes like the Instituto Cervantes, Alliance Française, Goetheinstitut, etc., but even so, I know probably only 2 or 3 people who can comfortably do that, and that is because their parents are multi-millionaires with multiple houses and live in posh areas and they do not have to work at all. Most people whom I know would be financially ruined if they tried this strategy for even 1 month. Or are we still to assume that money is no problem? I am not sure how much classes, tutouring etc. cost, but if I had to guess, my accounting would be like this: tutouring per week: 30€ class cost per week: 50€ accommodation per week: 300€ food per week: 70€ public transit per week: 10€ misc: 50€ total: 510€ per week Do this for a year and that would be 52(510€) = 26250€ per year. Let us assume that the minimum wage is something ubiquitous, say 15€ per hour. 15(8) = 120€ per day. (365)(120€) = 43800€, and this in-country goal to get to C2 costs more than half of a minimum wage salary, assuming that this person works full time during this immersion experience. It does not even have to mentioned for myself, that if I tried this total class/tutouring/immersion experience, a year would leave me financially destroyed, "total kapot". That is one advantage of doing everything by self-teaching--it costs much less, especially for working class people. And regarding C2 test "requiring a tutour", I shall quite gladly vouch to try a C2 test in one of my target languages when I feel that I have that level, even if takes 10 years more. If I can do both univarable and multivariable calculus by myself, why not a language. Given that it costs over 100€, I still feel comfortable with doing it in this manner, putting "moth" where the "money" is, I guess (if that is the expression). I am not saying to not do all of these things that are quite costly (or perhaps to the rich, fairly cheap), I did know some people in university that spent a few years in Spain or Latin America with some sort of class/immersion-style strategy, it also helped not only their level but their accent. If you can afford 50000€ even, and like one of my classmates, even had enough money to buy a car and house and live in a foreign country with immersion, if you can spend 200000€ a year without significant financial consequences and it suits you, then do it. I just highly doubt that this is applicable to most people, especially given that the unemployment rate for my age range is near 50% in some countries, and even in the richer countries, this privilege is generally not the norm. Edited by 1e4e6 on 21 February 2015 at 12:19am 7 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5432 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 93 of 177 20 February 2015 at 11:56pm | IP Logged | |||||
Rather than repeat myself and bore everybody, I'll just let iguanamon aptly summarize - as he is wont to do - a simple idea: one can benefit from lots of input, lots of output AND a tutor. The key word here is can; it's not must. Don't like tutors? Don't use 'em. Don't like speaking or writing? No problem. Don't like listening to recordings? That's fine. If watching soap operas from morning is your cup of tea, no problem. What counts is the end result. I know a student of French who really dislikes studying grammar and any kind of exercises. All he wants to do is talk and be corrected. The teacher tells me that this student understands French nearly perfectly but has serious problems talking because he never really got the grammar right and refuses to study. The end result is that progress is extremely slow or nearly inexistent. Tutoring would not really be very effective because the student would do absolutely no work in between sessions. Frankly, the situation is rather hopeless. Edited by s_allard on 21 February 2015 at 1:44am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| hobom Triglot Newbie Joined 4219 days ago 33 posts - 61 votes Speaks: German*, English, Russian Studies: Mandarin | Message 94 of 177 21 February 2015 at 3:11am | IP Logged | |||||
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To refute the ancient adage that after page 4 no new idea will be posted in an internet thread, I have a suggestion for the original poster to improve speaking and writing:
When you stumble upon a construction or pattern in your reading that you are able to understand effortlessly but that is not part of your active vocabulary, note it down and try to use it later while writing something. A lot of C1 and C2 involves finding fancier ways to express something. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4709 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 95 of 177 21 February 2015 at 3:31am | IP Logged | |||||
Interaction with an actual human being from another culture. Interacting with people gives you cultural information that just reading the books simply doesn't give you. They will tell you certain things, but cultures need to be lived, not read about. For me it's much more pertinent to see how Russians, say, in general, reply to certain questions. These kind of things can be read about, but it's never the same as seeing it in real life and that's why you need native speakers around (they do not necessarily have to be tutors). Tutors can't be a shortcut by definition by the way - there isn't anything supernatural involved by talking to people. The only thing that's "magical" or a "silver bullet" is "listening in your sleep" or other some nonsense like that. As for me, I have a definite need to understand people when they interact with me directly because I live abroad. And for many people, they're learning the language for the same reason, not because they're language geeks like you and me. For them, understanding basic interactions is actually very relevant and that constitutes a big part of language learners. For me, the turning point was that I spent two years travelling in Belgium without improving my French substantially. That's what made me change. I don't have a linguistical background at all (I studied languages in high school and I was good at them, but that's beside the point). For me, reality and LIFE showed me that I had to speak foreign languages. I simply can't identify a lot with people who learn languages at home from the comfort of their armchair because I've been there, done that, and failed in the real world when it counted. Edited by tarvos on 21 February 2015 at 4:03am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6584 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 96 of 177 21 February 2015 at 9:23am | IP Logged | |||||
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So here's a point that also needs to be made: a comprehensive input strategy does not necessarily mean just plonking yourself down with the collected works of Balzac and start plowing. There are many different strategies, such as narrow reading, sentence mining, rereading, reading familiar material, and other strategies for listening, too. The theoretical optimal input strategy would need to balance the need for repetition of structures and vocabulary with the need for a broad exposure to different registers, styles and expressions.
Anyway, I agree with the poster who said that input-only works fine for getting up to B2. I'm absolutely convinced by that. For getting further, I don't know. It's probably not a bad idea to get some schooling in the language, because natives do, too. But I believe that the core should remain input, and I'd much prefer 1000 hours of reading to 1000 hours of tutoring, and I believe the first is likely to produce a better speaker, if the reading is done correctly. As to the poster who wondered if Krashen himself has learned a foreign language to high proficiency, I don't know, but you might be interested in this article where he describes the accomplished Hungarian polyglot Kato Lomb. 8 persons have voted this message useful |
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