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Moving from B2 to C2 | ||
Tags: Advanced Level | Learning Strategy | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Kc2012 Diglot Groupie South Africa Joined 4475 days ago 44 posts - 65 votes  Speaks: English*, Afrikaans Studies: Dutch, Mandarin, Russian | Message 129 of 177 23 February 2015 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | |||||
Yes I chose to ignore that fact as it seems things have settled down ;) Edited by Kc2012 on 23 February 2015 at 4:56pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5228 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 130 of 177 23 February 2015 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | |||||
It is interesting to note that although what one needs to do with input to improve is apparently varied, judging from what accomplished people actually do, making mistakes and needing to shake them off is truly universal.
My English teacher used to say "Everything rubs off -- except good habits!" -- I might add, those you really have to hammer in :) Maybe that's how we subconsciously work by default (how our brains work, some would say) -- we accept what we hear around without ever questioning it, unless a conscious effort is made, which would make the independent checks and questioning something like a 'second layer' in our acquisition of information. Accepting information would be universal, questioning it and subsequent filters would have to be learned. If we wanted to use such a hypothesis to explain the persistence of basic mistakes in long-term, partial immersion situations, we'd have to see if this happens only when people are surrounded by others who still make the same mistakes. Or maybe we work on a 'first come, first-served' basis, so the first bits of information we acquire stick better, and subsequent ones are increasingly less likely to replace them without external reinforcement.
Maybe we simply do a subconscious weighing of instances, and we take it for granted that 'right' is whatever we run into more frequently. Maybe keeping hypothetical 'weeding out' mechanisms going on needs to be learned too, and we naturally stop at some point, fossilizing more mistakes the sooner we stop. One way or another, I am an advanced learner and checking my stuff is now second nature to me, but even so I've caught myself countless times self-correcting and thinking 'hey, I thought you had learned that once and for all' :) 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5011 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 131 of 177 23 February 2015 at 8:18pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, I find the post about exposing yourself to lots of high quality material, mostly
high quality authors and educated speakers to be very good advice with only one point missing. Celebrated authors and well educated natives will surely benefit you and help you get to high levels in general. But most people you are likely to meet won't speak like Dickens (or rather a celebrated author writing in their language). It seems to be a common struggle of learners I know to have learnt through formal channels (such as studying a language at school or later at university) that you need less formal language very often. So, some popular literature for young people, some magazines, jokes, a sitcom taking place in a bit slangy setting, all that is an extremelly useful part of learning at high levels as well, in my opinion. Now that I think of it, does a learner beyond B2 learn more of the correct, standard language or more of the natural, colloquial one? I know the hardest challenge have been the less standard sources for me, such as the tv series Engrenages for example, and I think they taught me really a lot. The standard French and highly educated speakers were quite ok at the B2 already, if I remember correctly. Well, I'm sorry kc2012, I don't think the trouble was your thread. Sallard and me have been disagreeing for quite some time with some mistakes on both sides. I've tried to avoid his discussions but that in reality means avoiding lots of threads I am interested in and, given some reactions I get, I don't believe my posts are only perceived negatively so I don't think I should basically just leave the forums. I'm only sharing experience with an approach based on things available to me and obviously useful and working just fine. I am not forcing the opinion on anyone, I am just not going to claim my experience untrue just because some people do not agree and can't let the question leave open. I called the testing centre today and was informed I probably passed the C2 exam. It is still not the final result, the center is waiting for the second opinion on my writing. I'm writing further info in my log, if anyone is interested. Having read this thread, I got a few new ideas for my next language to bring to high level in the years to come, thanks to everyone for that. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6599 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 132 of 177 24 February 2015 at 12:37am | IP Logged | |||||
Uniform languages pose their own difficulties as there's a specific standard that everyone has to meet, and anything that sounds off will be assumed to be a mistake, rather than regional variation.
Idioms are overrated, and as single units of the language there's nothing that impressive or difficult about them. It's also incredibly easy to overuse them and sound silly or just too much like a learner. While you need to "show your stuff", as Shekhtman put it, it shouldn't be too obvious either. Although of course in some cases it's a sad reality that it's better to know many cliches than to be original and creative. Edited by Serpent on 24 February 2015 at 12:39am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4709 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 133 of 177 24 February 2015 at 1:26am | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, in languages there is creative and there is wrong. And as a learner what you may
find creative is just as likely to be... wrong. Edited by tarvos on 24 February 2015 at 1:26am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6599 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 134 of 177 24 February 2015 at 3:10am | IP Logged | |||||
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True, but that's a whole continuum, or even a two-dimension system. Different natives definitely vary in what is creative but acceptable to them and what isn't.
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| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4292 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 135 of 177 24 February 2015 at 3:20am | IP Logged | |||||
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Using idioms is good, but overusing them and using them in wrong situations sounds
very annoying. I have heard non-natives use the idiom about two birds and one stone, except I know one person who keeps using it about how cheap something costs, and another one who keeps messing up and getting the number wrong "two stones and one bird". I had a classmate who kept saying that he was "on his road" when he was late, and if I did not infer that he messed up the expression "on my way", I would have asked what the hell that even meant. Then there was the guy who kept saying, "taking a piss" instead of "taking the piss", and more often than normal, trying to sound more idiomatic: "Come on guys, I am just taking a piss"... Probably at C level also just speaking with perfect grammar should be the most important. A native probably knows when idioms sound overrused, and might get annoyed or irritated, might even be saying silently to themselves, "Enough!", but perfect grammar and grammatical constructions can always be used. Edited by 1e4e6 on 24 February 2015 at 3:36am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6599 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 136 of 177 24 February 2015 at 3:31am | IP Logged | |||||
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We (non-native English speakers) also love saying that it rains cats and dogs... This one is even mentioned in Gunnemark's book.
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