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Moving from B2 to C2 | ||
Tags: Advanced Level | Learning Strategy | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| robarb Nonaglot Senior Member United States languagenpluson Joined 5058 days ago 361 posts - 921 votes  Speaks: Portuguese, English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, French Studies: Mandarin, Danish, Russian, Norwegian, Cantonese, Japanese, Korean, Polish, Greek, Latin, Nepali, Modern Hebrew | Message 33 of 177 17 February 2015 at 4:35am | IP Logged | |||||
This is really hard to do, regardless of having a tutor or not. What kind of tutor would be able to explain to you all the nuances in meaning of a language? They can explain the ones that come up in lessons, but unless you do lessons all day for a year, you'll only cover a small fraction of what's out there. Probably, the best way to develop this kind of sense is massive input, plus at least some output. People who learn a language and then use it as their primary language for many years often develop these nuances to the point where they're not obviously different from a native speaker. How many times have I heard someone say "compared to" or "compared with" in English? Probably many thousand. I still can't tell you what the difference is, but I bet I can use them correctly. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4289 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 34 of 177 17 February 2015 at 4:40am | IP Logged | |||||
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To add to the point about grammar, for C2 I would say that it has to be pristine and
basically perfect or near-perfect, especially given the academic type nature of the C2 (and CEFR in general) title. It would be bad to have a good argument that would be articulate were it not for grammatical blunders that are the equivalent of "Me gots to talksed about this". Even one grammatical mistake would probably raise some sort of warning. I imagine that nervousness can be excused because it causes mistakes than under a non-stress situation, but committing, for example, an average of 3 or 4 grammatical errors per sentence would seriously ruin everything. I remember an old saying when I was younger that one grammar mistake could even lower people's perceived intelligence about a speaker/writer to a factor of half. Probably is an exaggeration, but having a text or saying a dialogue that is littered with grammatical errors is definitely not native. I read the entire Manual: Gramática de la lengua española, with is the RAE's grammar manual, and things like this certainly helps a lot to improve at higher levels. It usually is tedious (not too much for me because I like grammar), but perfect/near-perfect grammar I would think would be a prerequistie for C2. Edited by 1e4e6 on 17 February 2015 at 4:45am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| smallwhite Pentaglot Senior Member Australia Joined 5307 days ago 537 posts - 1045 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin, French, Spanish | Message 35 of 177 17 February 2015 at 4:55am | IP Logged | |||||
The student is to write correctly in the first place, by mimicking what s/he has seen natives write, instead of by applying guesswork, which would be based on his/her own L1, if not random. If the student needed to use guesswork, the writing task is beyond his/her level. Like reading the instructions before fiddling with the gadget, instead of fiddling with it and breaking it first, and needing a repairman (tutor) ;-) 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5129 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 36 of 177 17 February 2015 at 5:03am | IP Logged | |||||
I very much agree with this. If you are already at a B2 and living in-country, there's a lot of ways to do this, and simply too. Having solely friends that primarily speak the language is an obvious start. You can also join an organization that involves one or more interests. You'll soon enough get both exposure to nuanced language and be able to apply it to your own speech. Go see movies with these friends. Talk about it and everything in between with these friends. Talk about deep, opinionated topics. You'll eventually reach a point where you can discuss and argue about topics and hold your own, even excel at it. It's by no means a quick process and takes years, but it can definitely be done. It's absolutely no different than how we learn our own nuanced language in our native language - in other words, a little bit at a time, but constant. R. == 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5225 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 37 of 177 17 February 2015 at 5:47am | IP Logged | |||||
Exactly. Regardless of how much I agree with the value CEFR level labels should be attributed, or what 'a true C2' might mean, I did go from high school B2-ish English to official C2 by my bootstraps, living in my country. So it's objectively and definitely possible, with no overly long in-country stays, no formal studying, and no immersion environment whatsoever. I sure watched a ton of English movies and series back in the day, and I never avoided speaking English to whomever I needed to communicate with. All of that, however, pales in comparison to the huge volume of English I read and wrote over the years (trust me on that). Will anybody doing the same thing achieve the same result? Of course not. The key to improving over those years doing that was to 1) pay attention to how some people, my 'prestige models', expressed themselves, 2) work out the difference between that and how I would have expressed the same stuff, and 3) try to incorporate everything I learned to my own use of the language. To me and many people I know, that is "just common sense". I know lots of other people who simply don't work like that, so perhaps it would be extraordinary to (some/many of) them. However, judging from the comments at HTLAL alone, I am pretty convinced there are other ways to achieve the same too. I would say you can be less attentive on comparing input to your own output if you get more corrections, and that you could be more balanced in your focus on spoken and written language, or maybe even focus entirely on spoken language if you can transfer between both. Regarding tutoring, all sorts of things can go wrong with it, just like they can with everything else in life, including self-teaching. I became a teacher myself, so been there, done that, on both sides. Assuming a reasonable competence on both parts, however, isn't it obvious that any tutors (who again are worth their salt) will make a difference for most students (except yet again those who won't learn no matter how good the tutor, and those who will regardless of how badly they're taught)? Isn't it obvious that finding tutors can only be expected to be increasingly more difficult the higher the level, and accordingly more expensive? In other words: how many people would successfully learn any subject to a university level (roughly what the Cs represent in language study), attending university classes, and without them? What's easier? What's more effective? What's more expensive? Everything is possible, there are just different levels of probability / likeliness. On determining exactly what to do, even those self-teaching can learn from the very people who emits pieces of paper with letters and numbers on them. If such institutions exist for one's target language (don't know about Afrikaans, sorry), there are always guiding materials, past tests, and whatnot available in spades, aimed specifically at getting those certificates. If we disregard or can't find those materials in addition to skip tutoring, and success stories here are not enough either, well, I guess it's time to start reading other B2 → C2 stories at HTLAL for inspiration ;) 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5429 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 38 of 177 17 February 2015 at 7:03am | IP Logged | |||||
I want to add my voice to this position. What we are talking about at C-levels of proficiency is impeccable grammar, nuances and subtleties of expression, fluency and general sophistication. A number of people have expressed the idea that if you have enough input and imitate good models you will eventually achieve this high level of proficiency. I think this is certainly possible. On the other hand, part of the discussion here is how to speed up this process by using effective methods and tools. This is exactly my reason for emphasizing the value of a good professional tutor, especially at the higher levels. It boggles my mind to think that some people would forego the opportunity to get corrective feedback about a piece of their writing from a specialist. Very simply put, you can't correct your own writing. What professional writer does not gladly accept constructive criticism from a respected observer? It's the same thing with speaking. I believe that everybody here at HTLAL - even those who adamantly believe that they can do everything on their own - would enjoy working with a specialist who can give a good assessment, point out areas in need of improvement and suggest strategies or exercises to do so. Suppose one could get at HTLAL 90 minutes of free online speaking assessment and tutoring in any target language. I'm sure there would be a line-up as far as the eye can see. Who can be against this? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| robarb Nonaglot Senior Member United States languagenpluson Joined 5058 days ago 361 posts - 921 votes Speaks: Portuguese, English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, French Studies: Mandarin, Danish, Russian, Norwegian, Cantonese, Japanese, Korean, Polish, Greek, Latin, Nepali, Modern Hebrew | Message 39 of 177 17 February 2015 at 8:07am | IP Logged | |||||
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s_allard, I more or less agree with what you say. I think most people could achieve truly amazing feats of
polyglottery if given the motivation and unlimited access to immersive environments and tutors. But I think, of those two, immersion has the greater effect. And, if you're a professional language learner, or just really need to master one language, and have the option, that may be the way to go. As long as you don't fool yourself into thinking a tutor will be able to eliminate all your errors, and that you can't reach a high level without tutors and full immersion. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7204 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 40 of 177 17 February 2015 at 9:18am | IP Logged | |||||
Steven Pinker says the impetus for his book on Style (in language) was born of what he felt was bad writing advice from his publisher, such as avoid passive constructions. Edited by luke on 17 February 2015 at 12:03pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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