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| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes  Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 41 of 70 08 August 2007 at 11:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Two weeks ago I said that (a) I finally knew what I was doing, and (b) that I was going to disappear until 2008 on that account to carry out whatever it was that I planned to do.
While I did correctly identify what had to be done in general terms, nailing down the tools, the exact approach, and the schedule has taken two additional weeks of intense but focused experimentation, which included reading two (simple!) novels as test cases. The final plan is as follows: (1)Reading has to have two independent components, the extensive one and the intensive one. (1a)The extensive reading component, as I plan to do it, is actually not purely extensive, but has some intensive elements in it. I have described the approach in another thread, but here is the quote, slightly edited:
After reading two novels in this fashion, I feel that it is the form of "comprehensible input" that would likely work well even on its own, but I decided to hedge my bets and also introduce an intensive component into reading. (1b)The intensive reading component. Normally, one would do it at the computer, looking up the words electronically and saving them and their definitions in Mnemosyne (or the like). I tried doing that and ran out of steam in no time. What I found is that cutting and pasting, and editing, definitions into Mnemosyne was taking up too much time per word and really broke any semblance of continuity of reading. One might say intensive reading isn't meant to be continuous, but labels aside, I simply couldn't stand it. It might've worked better with a regular (as in made of paper) notebook for writing down words, but I decided to try looking up every word with a pop-up dictionary without saving it. I found that I could read intensively that way (in a sense of looking up every unknown word) and still feel I had a fairly continuous reading experience, enough to stay motivated for half an hour to an hour, if not longer. OK, so that was Usable Intensive Reading Method I. What Intensive Reading Method I is missing, however, is LingQ's ability to highlight the words you've looked up and saved in this and all subsequent texts you read, which, I feel, must be especially helpful if one doesn't want to record the definitions, so I decided to see if I can use LingQ for that. I've already decided, of course, that I do not want to mess with editing flashcards, so this evening I've read a big chunk of a chapter for a bit over an hour in LingQ, whereby I would just have LingQ come up with the definition entry window and the dictionary window, I would read the dictionary window for definition, and I would leave the entry fields in the definition entry window without any changes at all, obviating the need to hit the "Save" button, thereby also saving on the latency of the "Save" operation. That means I don't cut and paste definitions from the vocabulary into the the "hint" field, and I don't touch the "example" field, which will thus contain a chunk of the original sentence with the word as it appeared in it. If I forget the word later, and the sample sentence isn't enough to recover it, I have a quick pop-up dictionary for that, and one can get LingQ to look up the word again too. And, if you have to look a word up over and over, you always have the option of recording its definition later. I also tested and confirmed that the dictionary LingQ uses can, after all, look up some simple phrases as well ("wohl oder übel", "vor kurzem", etc), which is good to know. In any case, this was of doing things has turned out to have the needed speed, I saved some 91 words in one session, and it hadn't become a drag. We thus have Usable Intensive Reading Method II in LingQ if this approach is followed. One of these will likely work, and there is the paper notebook fallback option, so I should be able to do intensive reading in a satisfying fashion. The real issue is whether it will interfere with absorbing vocabulary from extensive reading - this remains to be seen. Finally, in case you were wondering, here is the obligatory, and even not entirely gratuitous, mention of (2)Listening-Reading. I am putting it off for at least two to three months. I've liked the approach a great deal, but I've experimented on "Irrungen, Wirrungen" by Theodor Fontane to the point where I won't be able to look at it for some time, despite having really liked the novel and the author, and I want to focus on reading and building up vocabulary for now anyway. Schedule-wise, it will be half an hour of intensive reading in the morning before work, and extensive reading will take place in the evening, often in bed, but maybe not only. With this plan, I expect it to be for real this time: see you all in 2008. Edited by frenkeld on 12 August 2007 at 7:04am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7103 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 42 of 70 09 August 2007 at 10:21am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
See you in a fornight then, David.... :-) Andy. P.S. Just in case you haven't quite disappeared... are you uploading sections/chapters of a book to LingQ? I really like the highlighting feature, but would prefer to link to my own dictionaries. Although I do actually use Babylon (and I find it excellent), I've paid to add better to the standard free dictionaries. Everything you've mentioned above I've experimented with but I've now mostly stopped reading "real" books or newspaper articles and read ebooks or online versions of news articles. This allows me to do what you describe which is look up absolutely anything I don't know or even am unsure of. The definitions are only a "Ctrl + Right Click" away and I barely notice the interruption in reading. I've been experimenting with L-R using Dicken's A Christmas Carol in Spanish. Once I've finished that audiobook, I plan on finding some suitable and similar Creative Commons material for German and using LingQ to work with it. Edited by Andy E on 09 August 2007 at 10:21am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 43 of 70 09 August 2007 at 11:20am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I had deleted all threads except this one from my notification by e-mail list, so all is not lost yet. :)
Yes, I find doing it one chapter at a time to be best - there is no need to download and scroll through the whole novel every time you log in.
I use iFinger, which I use in the double-click mode. This also highlights the word, so I can look up the iFinger definition and then hit LingQ button and see what it has to say, as well as save it, so LingQ can start highlighting the word. I meant to e-mail you with a few questions, but let me take this opportunity to ask two of them. First, have you looked at the premium German dictionaries offered by Babylon? The selection seems a bit thin compared to other languages, and the Langenscheidt dictionary they carry (I am not even sure what size it is) is sold on an annual subscription basis, which I find rather annoying. The iFinger German dictionary I have is based on the 1998 (I think) edition of Compact Oxford-Duden. It's quite decent, so it would only make sense to trade up to Babylon if they had a good full-size dictionary. (I still need to check out Babylon's interface.) Second, I tried doing LingQ style highlighting in a single text using search and substitute feature in Microsoft Word, and it's sort of OK, but takes a few too many mouse clicks and keystrokes per word and is in any case confined to one file. I've been thinking of writing a macro in Word whereby I could click a toolbar button and have the selected word highlighted throughout the document. The more ambitious stage two project would involve programming Word to read in a wordlist from a separate file and highlight all the words in the current document, as well as save new words from the document in the wordlist file. I have some general computer savvy, but not much in the Windows environment, and certainly not in the Office environment. Any pointers to tools, books and/or online tutorials that could get me started? The only reason I would want to mess with it is because LingQ is an online system, and when you are trying to look up and store a lot of words, the latency of each look-up does add up up to quite a lot during an hour-long reading session.
I much prefer stand-alone eBook readers to paper books, provided one can find a well-proofread copy of what one wants to read. I use REB1100 - they don't make them any more, but I have two units (one for Cyrillic, the other for Western languages), and I like its 4.5x3 inch screen a lot. It also has a battery that lasts up to 20 hours, and it has backlighting, which paper books don't. Wish I could find a German dictionary for it. Regarding on-screen reading, I very much like being able to tear apart a complex text with instant access to definitions of all the words, so it's great for "intensive" reading. What I find is that it's very hard to resist looking up every word that way, making "extensive" reading difficult, where you mostly just read, but look up only a few words. Even when reading "intensively", one probably ends up looking more words than one would with a paper dictionary. Perhaps it's just a matter of training oneself to resist superfluous look-ups. Also, it's kind of nice to be able to lounge in a chair reading a book, instead of sitting at the computer. A small enough laptop can be a partial solution, but it's not the same as a portable dedicated device. Another question: have you tried reading on a Palm or PocketPC? Are there pop-up dictionaries for them?
I guess we could get into the issue of copyright and what a bane of language learning it is. Edited by frenkeld on 09 August 2007 at 11:29am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7103 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 44 of 70 09 August 2007 at 2:04pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Well, that's beyond annoying. I was actually looking at them today and the Langenscheidt was the one I was going to buy - I notice you only find out it's on an annual subscription basis once you choose to buy it. Back to the drawing board on that one then.
There will be a large number of Word VBA resources on the web but here's one from visualbasic.about.com here
The big advantage for me is I like to do stuff from both home and at work and an on-line system is great for that. I'm forever having to make sure that I keep my flashcards and audio/video downloads in sync. However, the latency is an issue. By coincidence I have been giving some thought to this myself. Rather than messing around with Microsoft Word, I had been considering writing my own Reader s/ware which would be based possibly on the RTF file format. It would allow highlighting plus easy export of sample phrases to flashcard s/ware. In addition storing footnotes against words would be useful as well. Principally, however, it because of my dabbling with L-R method and audiobooks. If I decide it's a goer for me personally, I may want to link a reader to my media player so that paragraphs are scrolled according to the audio timeline. I am as yet unconvinced by bi-lingual texts, although, if used, for me they have to be side-by-side. It's possibly a translation thing since I generally seem to dislike other people's "interpretation" into L1. However, such a reader could certainly support two windows one each for source and target language. The language files would be stored and loaded as separate documents The advantage with embedding timecodes is that file display of L2 and translation could both then be kept in sync with each other and the audio. That's the idea. It remains to be seen whether I get round to doing anything about it.
Actually yes. I have an HP Pocket PC. All e-books I try to source as Microsoft Word documents. I convert them to PDF for general computer access and to Microsoft Reader format for my PDA. There are free dictionaries available from Microsoft but I've ended up purchasing a copy of Oxford Spanish-English dictionary to supplement the free ones. The thing I like about Microsoft Reader is that I can highlight words and bookmark pages so that if necessary I can look back at "unknowns" later. Andy. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 45 of 70 09 August 2007 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
That option had occurred to me too. Finding time for any of these projects is the bigger issue. Maybe we could talk Zhuangzi one day into building a stand-alone program with limited capabilities - I'd rather pay for it than mess with it myself. I bet their performance problems with a stand-alone LingQ version had to do with content and/or online dictionary access, which wouldn't be needed here.
franklang.ru web site has some software for reading (and editing) parallel texts. Here is the link. If you don't have a Russian-speaking colleague who can help, we can get on Skype, and I'd walk you through the page. (Here is one of the secondary links.) PM me if you want help with this. I actually went nuts with my own first LR experience precisely because of bilingual formatting - it was taking way too much time, especially trying to break up mile-long German sentences into more manageable parts and then lining these up with the translation. (I did not know about the above-mentioned software at the time - it might have helped, I haven't tried it yet to be certain though.) As far as bilingual format in general, I am not yet sold on it - the L1 intrusion into the L2 experience is not nearly as big with just a dictionary.
Do you find it comfortable reading that way? I suspect with a good pop-up dictionary, it may become competitive with my current gizmo, despite the smaller screen size. It can do underlines and bookmarks, but dictionary is a problem. Edited by frenkeld on 09 August 2007 at 3:03pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7103 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 46 of 70 13 August 2007 at 2:45am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Yep. That's my issue with it as well.
I started using it as a reading tool following a recommendation on a thread somewhere her although I originally bought it to watch episodes of French in Action and Destinos on the train to and from work. It works surprisingly well as a reading device, although I am currently intrigued by the possibility of reverting back to good old-fashioned books printed on paper and using this. Andy 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 47 of 70 13 August 2007 at 7:40pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
A mediocre dictionary will sooner or later get on your nerves, or at least they have a way of getting on mine. Even a good small dictionary does that sooner or later. Given that a reviewer at the link you'd provided unfavorably compares the SuperPen-supplied dictionary to the Pocket Langescheidt, I plan to stay away from the SuperPen for now. Speaking of dictionaries, I looked more closely at the Babylon site, and the Langenscheidt they sell on an annual subscription basis is the "Standard" one. I own it in hard copy, and it is a good dictionary, with good coverage of idiomatic usage, but it is definitely of the "mid-size" variety, which could conceivably make Concise Oxford-Duden competitive with it. If you haven't already done that, take a look at its electronic version from iFinger (as far as I can tell, the 1998 edition). There is a 10-day free trial available, and who knows, maybe it'll work out for you - I use it all the time. (Make sure both instances of "German" are in lower case in the URL.) In the meantime, I poked around the web looking for a German-English dictionary for PocketPC, and I have only found Pocket Oxford-Duden for these devices. If you indeed have the Concise Oxford-Duden one for PocketPC, could you, please, point me to a Web site that sells it? I am actually finding that some of the reading matter of interest to me is not fully covered by either Standard Langenscheidt or Concise Oxford-Duden, but I am not sure if there exists an electronic version of some reputable full-size bilingual German-English dictionary, so until proven otherwise, I am keeping a hard copy of Cassell's handy next to the computer and may even need to get a full-size paper Oxford-Duden at some point as well. ADDED: I found a reference to this electronic dictionary at the OUP web site. Looks intriguing. In fact, even this may be of interest, depending on the price - at least you'll get the whole enchilada there. Edited by frenkeld on 13 August 2007 at 10:08pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7103 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 48 of 70 14 August 2007 at 2:00am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I've found that for reading I've totally outgrown my French & Spanish pocket dictionaries (nothing I look up is ever in there) and reading while attempting to use something the size of a couple of housebricks is just not enjoyable. For German, I've only been reading online so no problems so far - although I doubt I've outgrown my pocket German dictionary.
Yes. The dictionaries are certainly abridged. However there are a fair number of them and what I'm also interested is the ability to scan in the unknowns (with the added benefit of a sentence for context) and transfer them to my PC at a later date.
I've haven't evaluated iFinger as yet but I've been looking at the PONS dictionary on the Babylon site. I can trial the dictionary and see how good it is. I'm off to Valencia next week and so I'm doing some last minute Spanish prep. When I get back I'll take a look at both.
Currently I only have Spanish eBooks on my PDA and French and German is read on my main PC with Babylon + WordReference** but I'll see what I can find.
I'm very intrigued by the Oxford University Press link. I wonder what the subscription price will be - there might need to be some negotation with She Who Must Be Obeyed. Andy. **EDIT: Actually I use dict.cc for German Edited by Andy E on 14 August 2007 at 2:31am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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