Hours to become "expert" (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Hours to become "expert"
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Language Learning Forum : General discussion

15 messages over 2 pages: 1 2

muse
Newbie
United States
Joined 7147 days ago
17 posts - 17 votes

Message 9 of 15

04 May 2005 at 12:43am | IP Logged

Have any of you used the Supermemo program to memorize vocabulary.
It is supposed to be scientifically designed to automatically bring words
back just when you are about to forget. Sort a more scientfically tested
version of Pimsleur's graduated interval recall. The program does stats
and and you enter words daily or use lists others have created and over
time it figures out what you should repeat by your error rate and how
accurate you rate your own responses.

My son tried it briefly for his Chinese, but I think he was too far into the
class he was taking to spend any time learning how to use it.

If this program has already been discussed on the forum, I apologize in
advance. I looked around but did not immediately see it. (There is
probably a search function that I am not yet aware of.)
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Nick
Newbie
United States
Joined 7148 days ago
23 posts - 23 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: French

Message 10 of 15

04 May 2005 at 1:23am | IP Logged

Actually, the SuperMemo program was what I instantly thought of when Pentatonic mentioned his program. I was thinking that might be able to improve his learning process if he re-wrote his program with a spaced memorization algorithm.

For anybody that doesn't know, spaced memorization is very similar to what Pimsleur uses only it's usually applied in flashcard programs like SuperMemo or vTrain.

BTW, I really like the idea of carrying around cards in my pocket and reviewing them constantly via a linking method. I'll definately give it a try.

Edit: I guess Muse already gave a better description of the idea, but I'll keep this up in case anybody else skims too quickly at times.

Edited by Nick on 04 May 2005 at 1:25am
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pentatonic
Senior Member
United States
Joined 7248 days ago
221 posts - 245 votes

Message 11 of 15

04 May 2005 at 5:47am | IP Logged

Yes, I am familiar with SuperMemo and use it every day. It is not a memorization program (although you could use it for that) but rather uses the spaced repetitions to keep what you've learned in memory. This is great for things that you don't need to know fast. But for the core vocabulary of a language which you must recall fast enough to hold a conversation, "just on verge of forgetting" is not fast enough.

I have to be honest and say that lately I have felt that SuperMemo has let me down because of this. Now I start to think that it's probably a case of "user error". Core vocab. should be marked with a higher retention level and graded poorly unless you can recall it instantly with correct pronunciation. I've been marking them as good if I can remember them within a second or so. A second per word is not fast enough for conversation.

All the program that I wrote does is create mp3 files that contain groups of word pairs. But the groups are sized so as to provide spaced repetition. Groups of 4 work well for me for the initial learning. By the time a word cycles back around it's just about to fade from memory. Once I have learned them then the review groups with their bigger numbers provide a longer time interval. Also, by the time I get to them too much time has elapsed and I usually have forgotten one or two words which I then relearn which seems to actually help. I tried groups of 30 and then 10 for the initial learning but it took longer with more effort to memorize the words.

I think Czech has the right idea because he makes sure he learns his words to the extreme. If you can recall and review words completely from memory for a week then you've surely learned them well. However, I think he will find that unless he reviews them periodically they will eventually fade away. This is what SuperMemo was designed to avoid.

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czech
Senior Member
United States
Joined 7195 days ago
395 posts - 378 votes

Studies: English*

Message 12 of 15

04 May 2005 at 8:17am | IP Logged

Pentatonic,

I am thinking about trying what you suggest, with a sort of graduated interval recall system. I have been reviewing cards periodically but not in certain, time out sequence. I will probably review every card that I stop "mind exercising" 2 days after I stopped, and then 2 after that, 3, 3, 4, 5,etc.

If you are going to try this, beware that at first it can be very nagging, reviewing cards without a piece of paper. But you have to get over this, and get used to it. Also, it is a true asset to have as now you can "speed review". For example, the other day I was at a meeting. At a few breaks in the presentations, I reviewed a whole set in my head in about 10 seconds. That shows you how fast you can review in your head, without the mouth. The most important thing is to actually picture what you are saying in your head, not just rattling off the phrases because you know the order in your head.

And one more tip, always review (in your head) the words before you go to bed. I have struggled many times with not being able to remember the words quickly during the day, but if you review right before you fall asleep, your mind will do alot of work for you, and you'll wake up being able to mutter them at triple the speed of yesterday!
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Keith
Diglot
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Joined 6778 days ago
526 posts - 536 votes

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Speaks: English*, Japanese
Studies: Mandarin
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Message 13 of 15

18 May 2006 at 10:53pm | IP Logged

czech wrote:

If you are going to learn a language fluently, your brain has to work, and constantly at that, otherwise your target language will never come freely how your mother tongue does. It will always stay a long thinking process, like complex math problems, which is definitely not good.

I always force the same words down to the deepest parts of the brain, until they are nearly reflexive.
I do this by making flashcards of words, about 36 words per day (from newspapers), and memorizing them all, one card at a time, in their respective orders.
I recite them as much as I can throughout the day, thinking of the words meanings, and picturing them, but not as a translation of another word.

I carry in my head the cards that I memorized for 6 days, and after 6 days of review, all in my head without looking at the word on paper, they are stuck in the mind deeply.

But it does not take me 6 days to learn a mere 36 words, I learn a new 36 every day, so at any time, while standing in line or waiting somewhere, I review 216 words, in order, in my head. So every day I quit reviewing one set of cards (except with the flashcards), and memorize another. You can look at the first word of a set of flashcards days after you quit exercising it, and still give the 35 following words quickly in their order, knowing what they mean, and without effort.

This really works, and after succesfully memorization, read the text that you obtained your new vocabulary from, and they will seem so familiar that you'll never have to even wonder about them.

This method for learning vocabulary is similiar to real life, just think about it, your not going to be able to look at your flashcards in conversations, the words must already be there for you to access, in you brain, and available without thinking, if you want to be fluent.

Hello Czech,

Very interesting. Could you tell me how long you are able to continue with your method? Have you learned 6,000 or 12,000 words in a language? Are there any parts of your method which have drawbacks? I mean, any weaknesses? Such as finding time, fatigue, or burning out.

You learn 36 words each day. Would 18 words be more effective, or is 36 just as easy?

Thanks,
Keith
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primosanchez
Diglot
Newbie
United States
Joined 6307 days ago
32 posts - 32 votes
Speaks: English*, Spanish

Message 14 of 15

25 August 2007 at 12:29am | IP Logged

czech wrote:

Interesting method, I might have to give this a try.

Edited by primosanchez on 25 August 2007 at 12:30am
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reineke
Senior Member
United States
https://learnalangua
Joined 6448 days ago
851 posts - 1008 votes

Studies: German

Message 15 of 15

25 August 2007 at 11:05am | IP Logged

pentatonic wrote:

Czech, I find your method very interesting because I am also experimenting with memorizing vocabulary and have had a long-time fascination with memory and mnemonics.

Instead of flashcards I'm using audio files. I've taken the Vocabulearn series converted to MP3 and cut out the individual words into files. I wrote a program to go through a word list and create MP3 files of word pairs in groups. It sorts the list randomly and then creates groups of 4 word pairs. Every third group it creates a review group of 12 words from the previous 3 groups again sorted randomly. I listen to a group until I can answer all correctly a few cycles and then move to the next group.

This works well for me but I may be an auditory learner. The great thing is that I can memorize vocabulary when I normally couldn't, like when driving on my daily commute, going for my daily walk, and even sitting at my desk at work. People just think you're listening to music. :) Also, I hear the proper pronunciation so I learn that as well.

I don't try to learn a set amount of words everyday, I just take advantage of time when I can't do anything else. Study time at my computer is spent with text-based methods. Today during my walk and my commute home I learned 72 phrases, yesterday 48, and some days none at all. This week is the first week since I got the software working so I'm still experimenting. The downside is all the work splitting out the individual words. It takes me about an hour per 100 word pairs.

I intend to do a periodic review and note the words I miss and put them back into the cycle but I can see how a daily review of the last week's words (similar to how you're doing things) would really set them in my brain.

I've thought a lot lately about assimilation through memorization as a possible technique for learning language. You are linking your words to each other which is the easiest way to use mnemonics to remember the sequence. But there are people who have memorized peg lists and journeys with thousands of pegs/loci. I've wondered how they could use this to their advantage in learning vocabulary. It seemed to me that it would be too slow to be any good, but your post has perhaps changed my mind.

From personal experience with vocabulearn/picture dictionary/self-made picture dictionary I can tell you the latter two and especially the one I made myself worked very well. I still like vocabulearn very much but considering how slow I was going through it, I think I'm more of a visual type. However I find it a great auxiliary tool as a lot of the vocabulary in the picture book is also on vocabulearn.

Edited by reineke on 25 August 2007 at 11:06am

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