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Response to past Pimsleur discussions | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Kugel Senior Member United States Joined 6537 days ago 497 posts - 555 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 33 of 148 18 July 2007 at 4:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
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A while ago I printed out some studies from Dr. Pimsleur. Some things that I found:
1. The graudated intervel recall from Dr. Pimsleur did not concur with the Simon and Schuster program. Dr. Pimsleur's GIR was exponential, and the Simon and Schuster program does not have a set schedule for GIR. The transcripts prove this. I wonder if the reason to avoid transcripts with the CDs is because the company doesn't want to let the consumer know how "empty" the program is. 2. The pattern recognition drills were almost nonexistent in Simon and Schuster's program. Most of the drills were just repetition. If there wasn't mere repetition, the company should have made an effort to explain why their test questions are anything special. Their little pamphlet was a joke compared to free material on JSTOR which has actual Dr. Pimsleur research, even if it was only a few pages. It was forum member, dmg, that posted Dr. Pimsleur's reports from JSTOR. Thanks to him I've found that Simon and Schuster are misusing Pimsleur's name, because there is no relation from Pimsleur's research and what passes today as Pimsleur's comprehensive language program. edit: I hope I didn't sound too harsh. I just don't like it when a company plays with somebody's sincere interest in learning a language with false hope. There is way too much hype in language programs. And as far as I know, Simon and Schuster published no evidence connecting the dots from Dr. Pimsleur's research and the company's current programs in use. Edited by Kugel on 18 July 2007 at 4:54pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| blindsheep Triglot Senior Member Spain Joined 6359 days ago 503 posts - 507 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: German | Message 34 of 148 19 July 2007 at 7:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Am I the only one to note that this pimsleur program guy's answers to the questions raised are evasive and empty, or just wholly unsatisfying...? It's like asking questions to a politician... (or a spokesperson for a corporation)... it is of course a skill to say a lot and say very little (in response to what you were actually asked) at the same time... people spend a lot of money and time to master doing it in PR programs... but I personally don't find it a very respectable... perhaps its the inherent dishonesty and manipulation it continuously exudes...
At least in my experience using vague evasive language is the first sign that someone either a) doesn't find it in their interest to give the honest answers to the questions raised b) doesn't know what they are talking about and CAN'T give informed answers... I think we should start having *vested commercial bias* flags on threads like this... Kugel, I don't think you were too harsh... I'm extremely glad that you made the last post... definitely needed and enlightening. Edited by blindsheep on 19 July 2007 at 7:48pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7155 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 35 of 148 19 July 2007 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I hear you blindsheep. His answers have less of the marketing/"shilling" edge, but the undertone is still the same. Namely, give my product a chance, don't regret buying it even though it does cost a lot of money, and don't think too much about the cost-benefit when people here have had success with other courses such as those by FSI (free download depending on the language), Assimil (usually cheaper than Pimsleur and has more coverage) or Linguaphone (more coverage than Pimsleur and sometimes cheaper than a complete Pimsleur Comprehensive Set).
However, I give him credit for leaving his contact information. I think that he has to balance between showing genuine interest in helping serious language learners on the board, while trying to put a positive spin on questions or observations that some posters have made. If he wouldn't do that, it would reflect even worse on Pimsleur if one of their more senior representatives showed little faith in their products. I have tried Pimsleur, and was unimpressed by the end of it. As they say in business, it had a poor ROI (return on investment). I would've been better off spending my money and time on a course from FSI for the same language since I still get the drilling/repetition, but at least I get exposure to more than a few hundred words and stock phrases. Nonetheless, I know that some people do need to get themselves going by starting with Pimsleur. I guess that I'm just one of those people who're seeking to do more than just speak a language at a very basic level. I do have eyes and hands, thus I want to learn how to read and write too right from the beginning. I've never experienced that learning how to read and write in a foreign language from Day 1 interferes with my ability to speak. If anything, I need to see and write things in that foreign language as a form of extra reinforcement in order to help me build my own sentences in speech and not necessarily fall back on a stock phrase. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| manny Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 6357 days ago 248 posts - 240 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Tagalog Studies: French, German | Message 36 of 148 19 July 2007 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
NO!!! He has avoided issues that have been repeatedly raised (sky-hign prices, identical content for very unrelated languages & cultures, etc.). As noted before, he has a very strong financial interest in his program (via Mrs Beverly D Heinle). NO judge would ever hear a case from a distant relative - let alone a spouse. In other words, his input is the company line. The goal of this forum is to help people find the best way to learn a language. His goal is to sell the very expensive product. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| LilleOSC Senior Member United States lille.theoffside.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6690 days ago 545 posts - 546 votes 4 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: French, Arabic (Written) | Message 37 of 148 20 July 2007 at 1:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
Nope. Did you notice how he decided not to answer this question?:
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| lutonia Newbie United Kingdom Joined 6462 days ago 15 posts - 17 votes Speaks: English* | Message 38 of 148 21 July 2007 at 4:59am | IP Logged | |||||
Well - we did ask him an awful lot of questions, all at the same time. Presumably he needs to find time during the day to eat and sleep. Regarding his offer to phone him, have any of you in the US (where the bills aren't astronomic) taken him up? 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Charles Heinle Language Program Publisher Newbie United States pimsleurdirect.com Joined 6344 days ago 12 posts - 13 votes Speaks: English* | Message 39 of 148 23 July 2007 at 9:47am | IP Logged | |||||
You are probably not aware of the fact that Paul Pimsleur was his own first publisher. He operated out of his basement, since no established publishing house would then take on the courses. This means that every program was published according to Paul’s personal philosophy of how a course should appear. His first titles were Speak & Read Essential Greek, Speak & Read Essential French, Speak & Read Essential German, Speak & Read Essential Spanish, and Speak & Read Essential Twi. These were published on reel-to-reel by “Tapeway Programs” (Paul’s company), and sold by Paul mainly to select schools and colleges. After Paul found out the problems of publishing, he came to me and told me of the program and his problems, and asked me to take it on. I believe he felt that since I was publishing a French Ministry of Education Program (Voix et Images du France) in the USA — and was deeply involved in teacher-training programs for that course, that I could be trusted. We had also recently completed three major programs for the U.S. Peace Corps in French for West Africa, Brazilian Portuguese, and Korean, and he knew that we had a staff that understood something of the foreign language world. We quickly became friends and we signed a publishing contract with him for the Pimsleur Language Series. That’s how it all started. Shortly after that, Paul and his wife Beverly drove down to our Center for Curriculum Development in Philadelphia, PA and delivered all that was left of his copies of his Greek, French, German, Spanish, and Twi materials. After that Paul went to a new assignment at the Sorbonne in Paris, where tragedy struck in 1976, while Paul was walking to work, and he was dead from heart failure. The fact remains that we have taken care of the Pimsleur Language Programs, have made essentially no major changes in the basic format, and have continued to add new languages, following his original philosophy, taking care to follow the original courses he wrote, including his own course Graduated Interval Recall Schedule (GIR) as he adapted it when he wrote his five original Programs— and not exactly as the theoretical one he had written years earlier in his fascinating Research paper “A Memory Schedule,” which was published in The Modern Language Journal, Vol. 51, No 2 Feb., 1967. Charles 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| manny Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 6357 days ago 248 posts - 240 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Tagalog Studies: French, German | Message 40 of 148 23 July 2007 at 5:39pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Thanks for the detailed and informative reply which can only come from an insider. It explains the "cookie-cutter" approach which minimizes development and production costs. However, it does not explain the pricing policy which is very similar to what drug dealers use. Start with free or low cost sample-products and expect users to continuously trade up to higher cost products. There is only one reason for this – to maximize profits. Since Simon & Schuster is owned by CBS, their financial statements are not public. However, it is fair to say that these products probably have some of the highest profit margins in the industry. Thanks. Manny 1 person has voted this message useful |
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