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Interesting Chinese/Hungarian similarity | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| Vlad Trilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member Czechoslovakia foreverastudent.com Joined 6584 days ago 443 posts - 576 votes  2 sounds Speaks: Czech*, Slovak*, Hungarian*, Mandarin, EnglishC2, GermanC2, ItalianC1, Spanish, Russian, Polish, Serbian, French Studies: Persian, Taiwanese, Romanian, Portuguese | Message 41 of 97 05 September 2007 at 4:47am | IP Logged | ||
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Why are the 'splitters' and the 'lumpers' in such complete opposition to eachother?
Couldn't one huge proto-family be split all the way to the smallest possible split? I hope I understood the argument right.. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6768 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 42 of 97 05 September 2007 at 7:37am | IP Logged | ||
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"Couldn't one huge proto-family be split all the way to the smallest possible split?"
But that would imply all languages have a common proto-language ancestor, for which there is no evidence. :D 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Ximing Tetraglot Newbie Canada Joined 6279 days ago 7 posts - 7 votes Speaks: Mandarin*, Japanese, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Latin | Message 43 of 97 16 September 2007 at 8:42pm | IP Logged | ||
The Hungarian tribes, if they are the Huns (I am not sure they are the Huns or not, since I am not clear about European history), then the Huns lived in the north China from approximately 300 B.C. to an exact day at 450 A.D. Part of the Huns people fled to the Far-West in a great famine around 100 B.C., and part of them remained in north-China until 450 AD. The great history books "Han-shu" ("Book of the Han dynasty"), "Hou-Han-Shu” (“Book of the second Han dynasty”) and “San-guo-zhi” (Book of the three kingdoms, this is the history book, not that famous novel) all have big volumes for the Huns. You can find them on Internet and download or read them for free, but they are in Chinese. In these books, the Huns are described as having high-nose, deep eyes, and short in stature. The ancient Chinese attributed the shortness to their living style on the horseback. In one words, the Huns described in those books are white and short people living on the horse-back. (If the Hungarian tribes are not the Huns, then I have no idea about them) The history of the Huns is long, and there are many interesting events. I can give a brief summarization: The Huns, also called “Hun”, “Kunyu”, “Xiongnu”, “Hung”, “Hunyu”, and more names in Chinese, were a trouble to the ancient Chinese, much the same way as Germania being a trouble to the Romans. Unlike the Romans, the Chinese built the “great wall” to defend invasions from Huns (The wall was built by different Chinese countries in the time of Zanguo, and finally finished by Qin dynasty). Of course, wars were not the sole story; there were also mutual-influences and trades. Around the end of Qin dynasty, a great event happed: the Huns formed an empire. Now the Huns were not just nomads, but a highly-organized empire. The capital of the Huns empire, was called “Longtin” (龙庭, or city of the dragon) by the Han dynasty. The Huns country was very powerful, and it destroyed many small countries and nations in East Asia, and took many different nations and tribes for slaves, much the same way as Romans took other tribes and nations for slaves. The salves of the Huns include: possibly the ancestors of later Mongolians and Turks. Another big nation, the Yuezhi people (an Aryan people) fled from the northwest China to a place in modern Afghanistan and Tajikistan in fear of the Huns. Lately the Han dynasty sent emissaries to the Yuezhi and other countries in middle-Asia in order to build an ally to fight against the big bad Huns Empire. Another interesting story, every Chinese knows it, is the story of Su-wu shepherding on the Baikal (苏武牧羊). Su-wu was an emissary sent by Han dynasty to the Huns Empire to sign a peace treaty. However, some bad noblemen in the Huns Empire had a trick against the peace treaty. Su-wu was imprisoned and sent to Baikal-shore. He was a shepherd there for ten years. Fortunately Su-wu returned to his homeland after the Han dynasty signed a peace treaty with the Huns Empire ten years later. You may think Su-wu had a very hard time on the Baikal shore; however the Huns gave him a beautiful noble-family girl for wife; in this way his life in the Siberia may not be that hard. Ok, I have written too much already. Let me stop here. If you want to read more, I can continue to write it. Please be aware that I am not a history-expert. All I wrote are reproduced stories from the history book sI mentioned before. I read those books for fun, not for research. Edited by Ximing on 16 September 2007 at 8:47pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Vlad Trilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member Czechoslovakia foreverastudent.com Joined 6584 days ago 443 posts - 576 votes 2 sounds Speaks: Czech*, Slovak*, Hungarian*, Mandarin, EnglishC2, GermanC2, ItalianC1, Spanish, Russian, Polish, Serbian, French Studies: Persian, Taiwanese, Romanian, Portuguese | Message 44 of 97 19 September 2007 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | ||
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Ximing,
thank you for the great post. From what I remember, but I am not sure, the Huns and Hungarians are 2 different tribes..but how different, that I don't know. I was allways a little confused, why Hungary is called Hungary when Hungarians call it Magyarozság - The land/country of the Magyars and the tribe which moved into the Panonia region and later created the Hungarian kingdom were Magyars. Chung, do you know anything about this? How are the Huns and Hungarians related? But a very interesting information about the Hun state in northern China indeed. Ximing, feel free to write more if you can. it is a very interesting read. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7156 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 45 of 97 19 September 2007 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've read of some of these things before.
The name Hungarian is presented as a corruption of an Old Turkic designation "On-Ogur" (literally "ten arrows" but interpreted to mean "ten tribes") The name Magyar is presented as a compound of Finno-Ugric and Turkic words. "Magy-" is presented as a cognate of "mons" (Cf. Mansi) which means "man" or "human being" while "-ar" is derived from the Turkic "er" meaning "man". Of course, there is the phonetic similarity between Hun and Hungarian, but it could be conincidence. From my reading of Central Asian history, I believe that the Hungarians and Huns may be related but only in a very distant sense. As I've posted before, Central Asia was a melting pot, and tribes got absorbed by other tribes. In this way, it's possible that some of the ancient Hungarians may have had some distant ancestors who were Huns (who had been absorbed by other tribes who eventually started to identify with the ancient Hungarians). Yet that Hunnish element (if it had existed at all within the Hungarian tribesfolk) would have also been mixed with elements from what we now call Uralic, Altaic, Caucasian and Indo-European speakers. There's nothing to say that the ancient Hungarians were ethnically homogenous and tribal alliances didn't need to be viewed as being strictly divided on racial grounds. Allegiance to the leader could often be sufficient to be part of the tribe or "nation". As a parallel, Jengiz Khan's armies originally consisted of several related "Mongol" tribes (e.g. Naiman, Buryat, Kerait, Merkit), but later his armies incorporated Turkic-speaking people who submitted to his rule or were captured by his armies. I doubt very much the accuracy of the Legend of the White Stag, where the Huns and Hungarians were equal tribes who descended from the progeny of the brothers Hunor and Magor respectively. However, I would say that the lifestyle of ancient Hungarians at one point had a lot in common with that of other people who lived on the Central Asian steppes rather than the forests and swamps of Siberia. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Jee Senior Member Australia Joined 6309 days ago 105 posts - 105 votes Studies: English | Message 46 of 97 21 September 2007 at 9:24am | IP Logged | ||
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yes
I have heard about that a part of ancestor of Hungarian is relative with an anceint folk named Xiongnu which used to live in north part of anceint China (it's located about in nowaday Mongolia) Edited by Jee on 21 September 2007 at 9:29am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Vlad Trilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member Czechoslovakia foreverastudent.com Joined 6584 days ago 443 posts - 576 votes 2 sounds Speaks: Czech*, Slovak*, Hungarian*, Mandarin, EnglishC2, GermanC2, ItalianC1, Spanish, Russian, Polish, Serbian, French Studies: Persian, Taiwanese, Romanian, Portuguese | Message 47 of 97 21 September 2007 at 11:39am | IP Logged | ||
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The name 'Attila' Is a Hun name (Attila the Hun - Scourge of God and so on..) but it is also a very popular Hungarian name not only nowadays, but also in the past. If ancient Hungarians and ancient Huns shared the same names, could they be related in another way, or is this just a coincidence? but even if the Hungarians loand the name Attila from the Huns, they must've at least met to 'make' the loan happen, so there must be influence.
where I'm trying to get is: nő <- present day hungarian language - old hungarian <-> old Hun language - premedieval chinese - modern chinese -> nü3 = relation? Jee: do you know more about the ancient Hungarian - Xiongnu reltion? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7156 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 48 of 97 21 September 2007 at 12:12pm | IP Logged | ||
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The tricky part is to explain the existence of the Uralic cognates of nõ. How did the word end up in those languages? (not just in Hungarian).
When it comes to names, it's hard to say that because Hungarian boys are sometimes named Attila or Hungarian girls are sometimes named Réka, therefore there must have been a strong Hun-Hungarian identity at one time. After all, names that are not originally English are quite common in the English-speaking world (e.g. Katherine (from Greek), Michael (from Hebrew), Peter (from Greek), Jennifer (from Celtic)). Naming tendencies also reflect choices of the parents (e.g. naming after someone else whom they admire, they like the "sound" of the name, naming as part of a trend, etc.) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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