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LearningSpanishLikeCrazy (LSLC) w/ FSI | ||
Tags: Fake Reviews | LSLC | Platiquemos | Pimsleur | Reading | FSI | Book | Grammar | English | Spanish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| heartburn Senior Member United States Joined 7210 days ago 355 posts - 350 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 105 of 193 30 April 2005 at 11:30pm | IP Logged |
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The really sad part of this whole thing is that if you didn't try to dupe everyone with those Amazon reviews, you might have made a few friends here. Imagine what that might have done for sales.
Why not own up to what you did? Why not just offer an apology? Be a man. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| crylant Groupie United States cjrylantwealthmanage Joined 7200 days ago 85 posts - 85 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 106 of 193 30 April 2005 at 11:56pm | IP Logged |
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Heartburn sumed it up in a few words. I don't think there have been many, if any, complaints about the product, just complaints about what appeared to be misleading Amazon reviews.
1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Malcolm Triglot Retired Moderator Senior Member Korea, South Joined 7318 days ago 500 posts - 515 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English*, Spanish, Korean Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Latin | Message 107 of 193 01 May 2005 at 1:19am | IP Logged |
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The Amazon reviews are so obvious that they're not worth debating over. It's embarrassing how obvious they are, especially when you consider the 2-month period in which they were all written, with every "member" not writing anything before or after that time period. My problem with these reviews is that they're parasitic; they're designed to siphon customers from someone else's product to theirs.
We've also heard complaints in this thread about customer service. Still, that doesn't say anything about the product, so I have some more questions for Patrick or anyone else who's used the product. 1.) Patrick said that there are 32 half-hour lessons. With Pimsleur, the user generally listens to each lesson twice. This adds up to 30 hours for Spanish I. How many times would a listener repeat a LSLC lesson. 2.) How much vocabulary does it introduce? Patrick couldn't give an exact number, but he said it's more than Pimsleur. I used the Pimsleur series two years ago, and from what I counted, it only introduces about 500 word in three levels, so the first level probably introduces less than 200 words. This is the Pimsleur course's weakest area. 3.) How far does the first level go with grammar? Is there any subjunctive grammar at all? Is there any planned in the upcoming modules? Actually, I think "homebrew Pimsleur", as another member called it, is a great idea and I've often thought of creating a non-profit course along these lines (not for Spanish). The problem with Pimsleur is that it fails to pick up the pace after you've learned the basics, and it doesn't take you very far. If someone were to create a Pimsleur style course that goes on and on until, say, level 20, I'd be interested. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| heartburn Senior Member United States Joined 7210 days ago 355 posts - 350 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 108 of 193 01 May 2005 at 2:43am | IP Logged |
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I'd really like to see the reviews on the Platiquemos pages removed. Mr. Casteel is obviously just trying to run a small business just like Mr. Jackson. If Mr. Jackson had anything to do with that odd one-star review, it would be a very nice gesture for him to remove that as well.
I'm also particularly interested in the reviews of products by Stacey Tipton. I have reason to believe that she's been following this thread. She, like Mr. Casteel, is also trying to run a small business and has been greatly affected by all this. Malcom, I think that if Mr. Jackson were to apologize and remove all of the remaining Amazon reviews, we can offer to lock this thread and let it sink into the abyss of old topics. We can then create a shiny new thread to discuss the merits of LearningSpanishLikeCrazy and how it can be even better. A lesson learned and a fresh start. Does that sound reasonable? Edited by heartburn on 01 May 2005 at 3:09am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Malcolm Triglot Retired Moderator Senior Member Korea, South Joined 7318 days ago 500 posts - 515 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English*, Spanish, Korean Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Latin | Message 109 of 193 01 May 2005 at 3:28am | IP Logged |
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I would like to see the following reviewer removed: Sean
This thread definitely isn't helping Mr. Jackson's business. I could always lock and/or delete it, and it would be nice to start over with a positive thread on LSLC, but there are still LSLC advertisements/reviews on Amazon's Platiquemos page. There's also the issue of Mr. Jackson denying the whole thing (which was something he was forced into saying, unfortunately). I'm not one to hold grudges, but I respect honesty. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Platiquemos Hexaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Panama platiquemos-letstalk Joined 7165 days ago 126 posts - 141 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Finnish | Message 110 of 193 01 May 2005 at 9:43am | IP Logged |
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As Malcolm has suggested, I’m going to try to address the Learning Spanish Like Crazy program itself, leaving at least for the moment its owner’s parasitical marketing practices. To do a complete and thorough review would require having the entire program, and spending hours examining it. Since I am, however, quite familiar with the two programs on which Crazy appears to be based (FSI’s Programmatic Course and Pimsleur, I think I can take a fair stab at it.
One of the things that makes coming to any serious conclusions about Crazy (and might be either harmful or beneficial to its marketers, depending on the actual content and quality of the course) is the opacity of its internet promotional material. Whether intentionally or not, the marketing material and the “reviews” in Amazon.com do provide enough information to come to some conclusions, though. (For a complete contrast in marketing styles, providing detailed information about the program, free learning aids, etc., some of you might want to look at the Platiquemos website.) As several people on this list have pointed out, the Programmatic Course (PC from now on) is heavily dependent on the book. If Crazy isn’t providing the book but only the audio (it’s not clear from the promotional material), this would be a serious problem. Even if the entire PC is being provided electronically or otherwise, I would still have some problems with it. Any program that ties a person to a book (or to a computer, which is why I don’t much like Rosetta Stone)–and particularly a book as poorly formatted and difficult to use as the original FSI PC–is much less likely to be used for the amount of time necessary for real learning (acquisition) to take place. I have already mentioned that neither I nor many of my Foreign Service colleagues who were forced to use PC at least for part of our training liked it very much. P Jackson repeatedly says that one of the main virtues of Crazy is that it was developed and produced entirely by “college graduate” native Spanish speakers. The FSI programs, both PC and the Basic Course, were developed by higly regarded people who had both PhD’s in linguistics as well as a serious knowledge (in the case of Spanish, at least) of the language they were dealing with. They were assisted by educated native speakers, and all (or almost all) of the audio is performed by native speakers, but in the development of a program to teach a foreign language it is crucial to have heavy involvement and direction from people who both know linguistics, and who have had the experience of learning other languages. A native speaker simply has no idea what will be difficult for an English speaker because to them it’s obvious. When I was teaching with Platiquemos as I was developing it, I ran into this problem time after time. Unless my memory fails me, either Jackson, one of the “reviewers” or someone on this list mentions that Crazy focuses on the use of tú over usted. As I’m sure most everybody on this forum knows, most European languages except English have a formal and an informal word for “you”. Particularly in Spanish-speaking countries, the choice of tú or usted is governed by an exceedingly complex set of customs, traditions, etc. The choice varies not only between regions, but even within regions. In some families, parents and children use tú with each other; in others it’s usted. The most important thing to know about this is that it’s not a linguistic issue, but rather a cultural one. In most places, who is entitled to use tú with whom is a powerful signal of status. Using tú with the wrong person in the wrong circumstances can cause at the very least hurt feelings. Therefore, until you have a thorough knowledge of both the language and the place you are, it is highly recommendable to use usted (except with small children and animals). If you use usted with someone with whom you could use tú, they can point that out with no resentment (Call me Don, Mr. Casteel was my father). If tú is used with the wrong person there will be resentment (although most latinos won’t say so), and it can come back and bite you on the backside. Jackson claims that his program is the only one that teaches “real” Latin American Spanish. I’m not sure what he means, but it sounds to me like teaching colloquialisms (which vary from place to place, too) or maybe even slang. There is such a thing as “standard” Latin American Spanish (just as there is a “standard” American English)–it’s what they teach in schools in Latin America. It’s hard enough for an English speaker to master this without being distracted by colloquialisms and/or slang. We once had a teacher from Peru, who insisted that “pluma” for pen was wrong–to her it was “lapicero” (In most places, a lapicero is a pen and pencil set if it’s used at all.) She insisted even when confronted with dictionary definitions. All speakers of various Spanish dialects believe with all their hearts that theirs is the best and indeed only proper Spanish. I coud go on about this, but that’s for another time and place. Suffice it to say that what English speakers need to learn is the “standard” Latin American Spanish that is taught by Pimsleur, Platiquemos and, I hope, by Crazy. Finally, insults. Many of the “reviewers” bragged on learning insults from Crazy. Well, I think it’s crazy to teach insults to people who still can’t even carry on a normal social conversation. You’re encouraging them not only to make fools of themselves, but insulting the wrong person could even result in physical harm. Well, that’s it from me for now. Thanks for your patience if you got this far. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Platiquemos Hexaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Panama platiquemos-letstalk Joined 7165 days ago 126 posts - 141 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Finnish | Message 111 of 193 01 May 2005 at 10:10am | IP Logged |
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I had originally posted an e-mail exchange I had with a student about vocabulary and structure in language learning. It's been pointed out to me, and I agree, that it belongs somewhere else. It's now in the Beginner forum, since I think the points I make are valid for beginners at learning any language.
Administrator: I edited the message for better legibility and you can read it here : vocabulary vs structure Edited by administrator on 01 May 2005 at 12:20pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| heartburn Senior Member United States Joined 7210 days ago 355 posts - 350 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 112 of 193 01 May 2005 at 11:05am | IP Logged |
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Mr. Casteel, I think your letter to Keith has some really valuable information. Personally, I'd rather see that one in the Platiquemos thread.
I think we've reached a crossroads here. It's really up to Mr. Jackson to decide what happens next. If this thread is going to be deleted, I'd rather not see it go containing good information. Let's see what Mr. Jackson has to say. Edited by heartburn on 01 May 2005 at 11:27am 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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