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It Begins - Intensive Japanese
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Mcjon01 Newbie United States Joined 6306 days ago 29 posts - 29 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese	Message 49 of 65 11 April 2008 at 10:55am \| IP Logged
	Amazon Japan has it, but be forewarned that it is exorbitantly expensive. Then of course, there's always the less-than-legal channels that I'm pretty sure we can't discuss here. So I won't. 1 person has voted this message useful
ryuukohito Bilingual Diglot Groupie Malaysia Joined 6234 days ago 89 posts - 98 votes Speaks: English^C2, Malay Studies: French, Japanese	Message 50 of 65 12 April 2008 at 6:52am \| IP Logged
	Yesterday, I did about 15-20 pages of Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar -- specifically, the older lessons around page 70 or so -- and then, about 2 pages from Sherlock Holmes: A Scandal in Bohemia. Today, I devoted one hour in the morning for kanji reviews (doing about 200+); and, since 12PM I have been continuously (with an half-hour break in between, of course) studying Sherlock Holmes again. I am now at page 6, from a total of 46 pages. I have therefore progressed about 4 pages today, worth around 150-200 new words, most of which I feel have been retained in active usage. My discoveries for today: Frankly speaking, I am surprised that I am able to retain that much. I would attribute this to a high level of interest, and particularly the extensive use of mnemonics. (I used mnemonics for nearly everything, and it's surprising how much easier everything becomes.) I also used the scriptorium method; wherein I would copy and write down each sentence twice or thrice, trying my best to reproduce them from active thought (and constantly checking for errors, this being made all the more possible because I used a parallel text). I would also, after every 5 or 10 lines, try to reproduce the sentences from the previous page; and I was very draconian, forcing myself to reproduce everything if I made even the slightest of grammatical errors. Only if I passed that test, would I return to where had I progressed. Otherwise, no. Not to forget that I am also picking up (and trying my best to retain) new kanji as I go along. Indeed, Japanese is quite difficult in that sense: there's the kanji, then the reading (which can either be very logical, or arbitrary, depending on how commonly it appears, it seems), and then the grammar. A three step process. (And then there's the conundrum of passive recognition versus active production to take into account as well. Sigh.) But I find this challenge interesting, and I truly hope to have made much progress by the end of 3 months. I will be devoting at least 8 hours a day to Japanese; and even if the worst of circumstances were to deprive me of those 8 hours, then I shall do 5 hours, at least, by hook or by crook. As of now, I would say that I have studied for about 5 hours today -- about 5 more to go. I am now off to retype all of what I've read several times, in order to try and increase my retention of them. Plans (To Do): - Create a word bank of known words, using a spreadsheet. - Input data into an SRS program. - Check the meaning of those 'known unknowns'. - Try to increase the number of words memorized per day. 1 person has voted this message useful
charlmartell Super Polyglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6242 days ago 286 posts - 298 votes Speaks: French, English, German, Luxembourgish*, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Dutch, Italian, Latin, Ancient Greek Studies: Mandarin, Japanese	Message 52 of 65 13 April 2008 at 6:08am \| IP Logged
	I do admire your determination. gambattene! 1 person has voted this message useful
ryuukohito Bilingual Diglot Groupie Malaysia Joined 6234 days ago 89 posts - 98 votes Speaks: English^C2, Malay Studies: French, Japanese	Message 53 of 65 13 April 2008 at 9:24am \| IP Logged
	Today I managed about 6 hours of Japanese studies. I've gone up to page 170 something (i.e. Part 6) of Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar, and I think I've managed to understand (although not yet memorize) most of everything. Whenever I try to write down the translations, I find that I get most of them right. Sadly, it's a very slow process, as I've to think for a bit before producing the sentences. Still, I have a remedy for this. I will outline it below. ============ For the record, I use primarily Anki to review kanji, and sentences. (BTW, I love Anki!) However, for good old-fashioned drilling I prefer to use jMemorize. The reason being that it allows me to customize review times and drilling amounts. Therefore I can set a card, for example, to be drilled at least 3-5 times for active production and 1-3 times for passive recognition, before heading on to the next level. (The levels can be set for time intervals of 1/3/5/9/15 days, really, just about any time interval one may choose to use.) Also, there is the fact if I make a mistake, the whole count is reset... so really, it's a way to motivate perfection. What I do is that I keep a Notepad2 window open, right above jMemorize; then, as soon as the flashcard appears, I type the correct answer as fast as I can, which I then compare against the answer immediately. I'm sure that if I continue doing this for at least a month, my production skills will shoot up. So as soon as I finish Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar, I will import the sentences, and will attempt the active production drilling for at least 4 hours every day. (My vocabulary would not increase in this manner, but my production skills would surely improve, I believe. Also, in part, this is an imitation of the FSI method, which, if I am not mistaken, utilizes drilling and 'over-learning', instead of spaced-repetition. That's what I am trying to emulate, considering the limited time that I have. ) ============ Sadly, I did not work much on Sherlock Holmes today, although I did review until my progress yesterday, and I discovered that I had forgotten only about 5-10 words, so I'm quite happy with that :) Now, I'm off to review kanji and complete the backlog. (Oh, and thank you for the support, charlmartell!) 1 person has voted this message useful
ryuukohito Bilingual Diglot Groupie Malaysia Joined 6234 days ago 89 posts - 98 votes Speaks: English^C2, Malay Studies: French, Japanese	Message 54 of 65 16 April 2008 at 11:10am \| IP Logged
	Today I managed to complete one article from Nihongo Shinbun, which touched on the issue of construction rigging. I managed to memorize all the words, and the sentence structures. (Although I must admit that a few kanji stumped me, so it was frustrating having to go and search for the meanings to those kanji later on.) I also managed to memorize at least a page's worth of sentences from Sherlock Holmes: A Scandal In Bohemia. (I actively try to reproduce all sentences as I come across them, and I do this many times until I am able to reproduce them without much forethought.) I've also been going at about 100 kanji reviews, plus 20-30 new kanjis, per day. At the rate this is going, if things go well I would have absorbed 600-900 kanjis every month. This is great since I have about two and a half months to go before the end of the holidays. For the record, I am currently doing an 'internship' program, so to speak, which is related to my studies. It began the Monday of this week, and it will continue for 3 weeks -- so I sneak in whatever study time I have in between rest and waiting periods, and I do as much as I can once I return home. Today I managed to study for about 5 hours, but I am far, far too exhausted and sleepy to study any more, sadly. I look forward to the weekends, and the end of the internship period, when I will be able to dedicate at least 10 hours a day to my language studies. 1 person has voted this message useful
Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6766 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek	Message 55 of 65 17 April 2008 at 7:30am \| IP Logged
	For starters, congratulations on your remarkable progress. May I ask why you've chosen Sherlock Holmes as Japanese reading material? While I love Holmes — I've read every story several times — its Japanese translation would undoubtedly be a challenge, with advanced grammar and antiquated vocabulary. There are Japanese novels that will be much easier to read. Edited by Captain Haddock on 17 April 2008 at 7:31am 1 person has voted this message useful
ryuukohito Bilingual Diglot Groupie Malaysia Joined 6234 days ago 89 posts - 98 votes Speaks: English^C2, Malay Studies: French, Japanese	Message 56 of 65 17 April 2008 at 10:10am \| IP Logged
	Thank you for the encouragement, Captain Haddock! My being a huge fan of the Sherlock Holmes series could probably be attributed to the variety and depth of the characters, as well as the storyline and Victorian setting. But if I had to choose one particular aspect that I enjoy the most, then it would probably be Arthur Conan Doyle's stylistic delivery. As regards your question then: I chose to begin with the Sherlock Holmes series hoping that the 'Victorian tenor' I so admire would carry itself into the Japanese language; and, if the Japanese version were to be considered (by Japanese readers) to be every bit as elegant as the English version, then I would like to write in such a manner as well. (I will not speak that way of course, as I do realize it might be far too pompous in this day and age.) Then, there is the fact that the other novels/stories I've tried (amongst the many listed down in sheetz's Japanese Language Log thread) are not able to hold my attention as strongly as the Sherlock Holmes series. This is rather unfortunate for me. So I try to make the best of what motivates me the most currently. My plan, as such, is this: I've noticed that the Sherlock Holmes series uses a large vocabulary. Since I myself have a small vocabulary of Japanese words, I'm hoping to have amassed a a vocabulary (at least, a passive one) of 3000-5000 words by the time I complete one or two Sherlock Holmes stories. Thereafter I shall import and continuously review and drill the sentences with an SRS program. (This being how I choose to apply the Heinrich Schliemann method.) At the same time, with the vocabulary that I already have, and increased familiarity with kanji and their readings, I shall go on to reading other related works, such as those by Natsume Souseki. I would also like to proceed to the Harry Potter series. (I've tried diving into the Harry Potter series before, but without a dictionary translation at hand, and not knowing many kanji at the time, I felt lost and did not want to proceed. At least with the Sherlock Holmes series there is the ever-helpful RikaiChan extension, and my other dictionaries (if I so need them), kanji search/grammar books, etc.) I read quite a lot myself, but I am not allowing myself from doing so yet with Japanese because of the kanji/word vocabulary that I lack, but as soon as that is tackled I am going to read as extensively and widely as I can. Either way, I would truly appreciate having some guidance from your person, Captain Haddock. (And, if I may ask you a question, because this one does bother me a fair bit: At what point did you stop consciously/unconsciously translating words in your head as you read? As in, at what point did the meanings of words reach you without having to go through a a secondary language-> native language translation process? Did it take years, or months, etc? ) 1 person has voted this message useful

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Mcjon01 Newbie United States Joined 6306 days ago 29 posts - 29 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese	Message 49 of 65 11 April 2008 at 10:55am \| IP Logged
	Amazon Japan has it, but be forewarned that it is exorbitantly expensive. Then of course, there's always the less-than-legal channels that I'm pretty sure we can't discuss here. So I won't. 1 person has voted this message useful
ryuukohito Bilingual Diglot Groupie Malaysia Joined 6234 days ago 89 posts - 98 votes Speaks: English^C2, Malay Studies: French, Japanese	Message 50 of 65 12 April 2008 at 6:52am \| IP Logged
	Yesterday, I did about 15-20 pages of Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar -- specifically, the older lessons around page 70 or so -- and then, about 2 pages from Sherlock Holmes: A Scandal in Bohemia. Today, I devoted one hour in the morning for kanji reviews (doing about 200+); and, since 12PM I have been continuously (with an half-hour break in between, of course) studying Sherlock Holmes again. I am now at page 6, from a total of 46 pages. I have therefore progressed about 4 pages today, worth around 150-200 new words, most of which I feel have been retained in active usage. My discoveries for today: Frankly speaking, I am surprised that I am able to retain that much. I would attribute this to a high level of interest, and particularly the extensive use of mnemonics. (I used mnemonics for nearly everything, and it's surprising how much easier everything becomes.) I also used the scriptorium method; wherein I would copy and write down each sentence twice or thrice, trying my best to reproduce them from active thought (and constantly checking for errors, this being made all the more possible because I used a parallel text). I would also, after every 5 or 10 lines, try to reproduce the sentences from the previous page; and I was very draconian, forcing myself to reproduce everything if I made even the slightest of grammatical errors. Only if I passed that test, would I return to where had I progressed. Otherwise, no. Not to forget that I am also picking up (and trying my best to retain) new kanji as I go along. Indeed, Japanese is quite difficult in that sense: there's the kanji, then the reading (which can either be very logical, or arbitrary, depending on how commonly it appears, it seems), and then the grammar. A three step process. (And then there's the conundrum of passive recognition versus active production to take into account as well. Sigh.) But I find this challenge interesting, and I truly hope to have made much progress by the end of 3 months. I will be devoting at least 8 hours a day to Japanese; and even if the worst of circumstances were to deprive me of those 8 hours, then I shall do 5 hours, at least, by hook or by crook. As of now, I would say that I have studied for about 5 hours today -- about 5 more to go. I am now off to retype all of what I've read several times, in order to try and increase my retention of them. Plans (To Do): - Create a word bank of known words, using a spreadsheet. - Input data into an SRS program. - Check the meaning of those 'known unknowns'. - Try to increase the number of words memorized per day. 1 person has voted this message useful
charlmartell Super Polyglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6242 days ago 286 posts - 298 votes Speaks: French, English, German, Luxembourgish*, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Dutch, Italian, Latin, Ancient Greek Studies: Mandarin, Japanese	Message 52 of 65 13 April 2008 at 6:08am \| IP Logged
	I do admire your determination. gambattene! 1 person has voted this message useful
ryuukohito Bilingual Diglot Groupie Malaysia Joined 6234 days ago 89 posts - 98 votes Speaks: English^C2, Malay Studies: French, Japanese	Message 53 of 65 13 April 2008 at 9:24am \| IP Logged
	Today I managed about 6 hours of Japanese studies. I've gone up to page 170 something (i.e. Part 6) of Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar, and I think I've managed to understand (although not yet memorize) most of everything. Whenever I try to write down the translations, I find that I get most of them right. Sadly, it's a very slow process, as I've to think for a bit before producing the sentences. Still, I have a remedy for this. I will outline it below. ============ For the record, I use primarily Anki to review kanji, and sentences. (BTW, I love Anki!) However, for good old-fashioned drilling I prefer to use jMemorize. The reason being that it allows me to customize review times and drilling amounts. Therefore I can set a card, for example, to be drilled at least 3-5 times for active production and 1-3 times for passive recognition, before heading on to the next level. (The levels can be set for time intervals of 1/3/5/9/15 days, really, just about any time interval one may choose to use.) Also, there is the fact if I make a mistake, the whole count is reset... so really, it's a way to motivate perfection. What I do is that I keep a Notepad2 window open, right above jMemorize; then, as soon as the flashcard appears, I type the correct answer as fast as I can, which I then compare against the answer immediately. I'm sure that if I continue doing this for at least a month, my production skills will shoot up. So as soon as I finish Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar, I will import the sentences, and will attempt the active production drilling for at least 4 hours every day. (My vocabulary would not increase in this manner, but my production skills would surely improve, I believe. Also, in part, this is an imitation of the FSI method, which, if I am not mistaken, utilizes drilling and 'over-learning', instead of spaced-repetition. That's what I am trying to emulate, considering the limited time that I have. ) ============ Sadly, I did not work much on Sherlock Holmes today, although I did review until my progress yesterday, and I discovered that I had forgotten only about 5-10 words, so I'm quite happy with that :) Now, I'm off to review kanji and complete the backlog. (Oh, and thank you for the support, charlmartell!) 1 person has voted this message useful
ryuukohito Bilingual Diglot Groupie Malaysia Joined 6234 days ago 89 posts - 98 votes Speaks: English^C2, Malay Studies: French, Japanese	Message 54 of 65 16 April 2008 at 11:10am \| IP Logged
	Today I managed to complete one article from Nihongo Shinbun, which touched on the issue of construction rigging. I managed to memorize all the words, and the sentence structures. (Although I must admit that a few kanji stumped me, so it was frustrating having to go and search for the meanings to those kanji later on.) I also managed to memorize at least a page's worth of sentences from Sherlock Holmes: A Scandal In Bohemia. (I actively try to reproduce all sentences as I come across them, and I do this many times until I am able to reproduce them without much forethought.) I've also been going at about 100 kanji reviews, plus 20-30 new kanjis, per day. At the rate this is going, if things go well I would have absorbed 600-900 kanjis every month. This is great since I have about two and a half months to go before the end of the holidays. For the record, I am currently doing an 'internship' program, so to speak, which is related to my studies. It began the Monday of this week, and it will continue for 3 weeks -- so I sneak in whatever study time I have in between rest and waiting periods, and I do as much as I can once I return home. Today I managed to study for about 5 hours, but I am far, far too exhausted and sleepy to study any more, sadly. I look forward to the weekends, and the end of the internship period, when I will be able to dedicate at least 10 hours a day to my language studies. 1 person has voted this message useful
Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6766 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek	Message 55 of 65 17 April 2008 at 7:30am \| IP Logged
	For starters, congratulations on your remarkable progress. May I ask why you've chosen Sherlock Holmes as Japanese reading material? While I love Holmes — I've read every story several times — its Japanese translation would undoubtedly be a challenge, with advanced grammar and antiquated vocabulary. There are Japanese novels that will be much easier to read. Edited by Captain Haddock on 17 April 2008 at 7:31am 1 person has voted this message useful
ryuukohito Bilingual Diglot Groupie Malaysia Joined 6234 days ago 89 posts - 98 votes Speaks: English^C2, Malay Studies: French, Japanese	Message 56 of 65 17 April 2008 at 10:10am \| IP Logged
	Thank you for the encouragement, Captain Haddock! My being a huge fan of the Sherlock Holmes series could probably be attributed to the variety and depth of the characters, as well as the storyline and Victorian setting. But if I had to choose one particular aspect that I enjoy the most, then it would probably be Arthur Conan Doyle's stylistic delivery. As regards your question then: I chose to begin with the Sherlock Holmes series hoping that the 'Victorian tenor' I so admire would carry itself into the Japanese language; and, if the Japanese version were to be considered (by Japanese readers) to be every bit as elegant as the English version, then I would like to write in such a manner as well. (I will not speak that way of course, as I do realize it might be far too pompous in this day and age.) Then, there is the fact that the other novels/stories I've tried (amongst the many listed down in sheetz's Japanese Language Log thread) are not able to hold my attention as strongly as the Sherlock Holmes series. This is rather unfortunate for me. So I try to make the best of what motivates me the most currently. My plan, as such, is this: I've noticed that the Sherlock Holmes series uses a large vocabulary. Since I myself have a small vocabulary of Japanese words, I'm hoping to have amassed a a vocabulary (at least, a passive one) of 3000-5000 words by the time I complete one or two Sherlock Holmes stories. Thereafter I shall import and continuously review and drill the sentences with an SRS program. (This being how I choose to apply the Heinrich Schliemann method.) At the same time, with the vocabulary that I already have, and increased familiarity with kanji and their readings, I shall go on to reading other related works, such as those by Natsume Souseki. I would also like to proceed to the Harry Potter series. (I've tried diving into the Harry Potter series before, but without a dictionary translation at hand, and not knowing many kanji at the time, I felt lost and did not want to proceed. At least with the Sherlock Holmes series there is the ever-helpful RikaiChan extension, and my other dictionaries (if I so need them), kanji search/grammar books, etc.) I read quite a lot myself, but I am not allowing myself from doing so yet with Japanese because of the kanji/word vocabulary that I lack, but as soon as that is tackled I am going to read as extensively and widely as I can. Either way, I would truly appreciate having some guidance from your person, Captain Haddock. (And, if I may ask you a question, because this one does bother me a fair bit: At what point did you stop consciously/unconsciously translating words in your head as you read? As in, at what point did the meanings of words reach you without having to go through a a secondary language-> native language translation process? Did it take years, or months, etc? ) 1 person has voted this message useful