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How does shadowing improve fluency? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Lessons in Polyglottery |  | |
| JasonChoi Diglot Senior Member Korea, South Joined 6360 days ago 274 posts - 298 votes  Speaks: English*, Korean Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese, Latin | Message 9 of 39 11 February 2008 at 3:38am | IP Logged | |||||
While I do think audio-lingualism does work to some degree, critics of the Audio-Lingual method claim that students are merely parroting and cannot create anything spontaneous.
This is quite interesting. Can you direct me to any of this material? Also, do you have any sources that prove this claim? I would really like to know more about this. -Jason 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Alkeides Senior Member Bhutan Joined 6149 days ago 636 posts - 644 votes | Message 10 of 39 11 February 2008 at 4:27am | IP Logged | |||||
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I believe the Professor is primarily referring to the standards of the Linguaphone and Assimil methods back then, although personally, I have to volunteer Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata as another exemplary methud from that period. THe Professor has also mentioned this series in another post.
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| Raincrowlee Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 6703 days ago 621 posts - 808 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin, Korean, French Studies: Indonesian, Japanese | Message 11 of 39 12 February 2008 at 5:28pm | IP Logged | |||||
But that's true for language students under almost any teaching method if the students haven't figured out how to transform passive input to active output. One thing that that's being ignored in this discussion is that Prof Arguelles does a lot more than merely shadow. He also reads grammar books and other material, so he has a broader base than most. But more to the point, I believe that he has trained himself to always try to speak his target language and transfer the material that he learns through shadowing into a more active and flexible state than simply parroting. He seems to approach the audio as a supplement for his own quest in understanding the language, rather than the sum total of learning. If a student wanted to use shadowing in an effective manner, he would have to listen and repeat what he hears, and then try to use the material to create his own output. If that last step is missing, then he will just be a parrot. Edited by Raincrowlee on 12 February 2008 at 5:28pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ProfArguelles Moderator United States foreignlanguageexper Joined 7257 days ago 609 posts - 2102 votes | Message 12 of 39 17 February 2008 at 8:56pm | IP Logged | |||||
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James, I did not take offense at your question, but simply rather at the painful reminder of the damage that the “science” of applied linguistics has done to language learning materials. When you read that certain studies say that a method is ineffective, it is quite logical to infer that other methods must have been shown to be more effective, but sadly that is not the way it works. Criticism alone is enough to further one’s career, and in the age of dumbing-down, there are many actualities in education that are the diametric opposite of the purported goals. Ultimately, the kind of study you are reading about, and, I fear, even the one you propose, are not very meaningful. If you are an educator, it would be far better to test the efficacy of various methods by using them yourself to learn languages than it would be to watch others attempt to use them. If your field of study is language acquisition, then you ought to be a polyglot, but I have never known an applied linguist who had any range or depth of mastery in foreign languages.
On the same track, Mr. Choi, for the proof that you now request, all you need to do is to compare the offerings of any series of instructional materials (Assimil, Linguaphone, Teach Yourself, Colloquial, Hugo’s, etc.) of this generation with the one that preceded it. It may be hard to find such material in quantity because most libraries do not collect it in the first place, and those that do generally jettison their older materials when they acquire replacements. However, I possess many such tomes, old and new, in great volume, and I hereby extend a very serious invitation to you to visit me and peruse my shelves if you would like to examine the damning and depressing evidence for yourself. Even Lingua Latina, excellent though it still is, has been dumbed-down from its original 1954 edition. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 13 of 39 18 February 2008 at 4:09am | IP Logged | |||||
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| fat_hot Diglot Newbie United States Joined 6383 days ago 8 posts - 8 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Russian, Mandarin | Message 14 of 39 25 February 2008 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Professor Arguelles,
I would be interested to hear how you would characterize the difference in effectiveness between the shadowing technique you propose and the audio-lingual method used in Pimsleur. [In Pimsleur, for those who haven't used it, words and phrases in a dialog are drilled using cues in the native language and the correct response in the target language is then played. The frequency of new cues starts out high and then decreases, using a system they call graduated interval recall.] Specifically, do you see it as a problem that shadowing an entire chapter of a book requires the student to spend time rehearsing material that may already have been learned, and doesn't focus the practice time on studying new and more difficult words and phrases? I think that repetition of new phrases is a factor that makes Pimsleur particularly effective. James 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6910 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 15 of 39 01 March 2008 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Professor Arguelles,
I don't doubt the effectiveness of shadowing as a method to attain/maintain fluency (in fact, I do blind-shadow a lot, i.e. with no prior knowledge of the material, and sincerely feel that I learn much from it). However, I would like to know if you think there are any certain benefits of the method as opposed to knowing the material beforehand, e.g. reading texts and then shadow. For instance, in the thread Ideal Systematic Approach to Korean?, you suggest that shadowing should be done before anything else (#4). Any information is helpful. Jeff Lindqvist 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| zorglub Pentaglot Senior Member France Joined 7001 days ago 441 posts - 504 votes 1 sounds Speaks: French*, English, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: German, Arabic (Written), Turkish, Mandarin | Message 16 of 39 01 March 2008 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
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If I may give my two cents..
My own impression is based on efficiency: As i don't have enough time to try shadowing the Arguelles way (I tried, I get bored, I don't progress), I don't shadoww a text i do not understand. It works very well for me. It is efficient. Because It rewards me swiftly. But this is just one way of shadowing, that of a lazy learner, just an oligoglot, and not an in-depth connoiseur of the languages he speaks. The results achieved with Arguelles type shadowing may be much better.
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