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Some thoughts on accent and pronunciation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Lessons in Polyglottery |  | |
| Budz Octoglot Senior Member Australia languagepump.com Joined 6372 days ago 118 posts - 171 votes  Speaks: German*, English, Russian, Esperanto, Ukrainian, Mandarin, Cantonese, French Studies: Italian, Spanish, Korean, Portuguese, Bulgarian, Persian, Hungarian, Kazakh, Swahili, Vietnamese, Polish | Message 25 of 43 04 May 2008 at 9:40pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Personally I doubt whether anyone needs to go out of their way to retain a foreign accent when speaking another language... it will probably be there no matter what. And just as mastery of the grammar can be pretty impressive, getting the pronunciation almost right is also pretty impressive.
Yes, it can be a bit surprising to hear someone that has really good pronunciation but doesn't know the language that well. But it doesn't take long to work out at what level one needs to speak. And the examples given above could have happened even if they had crap pronunciation. Some people don't make any allowances at all, not matter what. And basically, the last thing you want is someone speaking baby talk to you because you're pronunciation is bad. IMHO, for anyone to go out of their way to avoid having as good a pronunciation as possible is well... pretty absurd. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 26 of 43 05 May 2008 at 12:11am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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The levels defined by ProfArguelles in the first post in this thread are so well characterized that they should be used in all future characterizations of a persons level in pronuncation, and the best way to do so is to refer to them as much as possible.
There is one factor that may make it difficult for a language learner to blend in with the locals of any language community, namely the fact that the second language learner hears relatively little in the foreign language, and what he/she hears may even be a mixture of different variants of the language. This is certainly the case with a language like English where I hear a lot through television, but what I hear represents a bewildering array of dialects. I hear much less German, Spanish and so forth, but even here there are different dialects (or rather dialect groups) represented. The same problem applies to for instance Portuguese, where my main source isn't television, but the internet - and far too little of that. So the net result is that to pass for a native (levels 9-10) I would have to choose one dialect and stick to that, and I would probably have to restrict my television and internet-audio consumption to items representing that dialect for a substantial time to arrive at that point. I don't see that happening, especially not with languages where it is already a problem to find enough interesting content. People who are taught by one and only one teacher can choose to emulate that teacher, but I'm luckily not in that position. So the best I can hope for is to sound alien, but competent. In case I'm travelling to a certain place I can temporarily let the local way of speaking the language serve as a model, but afterwards my language production returns to the normal eclectic mix. In practice the temporary colouring of my language will happen quite automatically (just as with the professor speaking initially Swedish, which when speaking to Norwegians drifts in the direction of their language, cfr. the thread about programs about different languages). In practice it isn't a problem for me not to sound exactly like any specific native, - I have no reason to hide that I'm not a native, - I'm not a spy. I know from my travels - and I travel alot - that I speak a number of languages well enough to engage in conversations about a wide array of topics, and as far as I can hear the locals are not trying to 'speak down' to me in the way described by Andee. I suppose that corresponds to somewhere between 5 and 7, and that's enough for me. In fact the problem with my weaker languages is normally that the locals speak at their normal speed to me as soon as I open my mouth, and I'm not always ready for that. Sounding like one of them without understanding the language as well as them would just accentuate that problem. Edited by Iversen on 14 September 2009 at 2:42pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Budz Octoglot Senior Member Australia languagepump.com Joined 6372 days ago 118 posts - 171 votes Speaks: German*, English, Russian, Esperanto, Ukrainian, Mandarin, Cantonese, French Studies: Italian, Spanish, Korean, Portuguese, Bulgarian, Persian, Hungarian, Kazakh, Swahili, Vietnamese, Polish | Message 27 of 43 05 May 2008 at 12:18am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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But of course, generally this won't be a problem? How many people learn a foreign language as an adult with an accent? Even if they get the words right they probably have a different prosody.
But certainly a previous poster made a good point. Reach the level of a pleasant pronunciation that doesn't butcher the language - then don't waste more time on it. Spend the time learning the language - vocab, grammar, expressions. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Topsiderunner Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6917 days ago 215 posts - 218 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Italian, Arabic (Written) | Message 28 of 43 05 May 2008 at 8:00am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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One problem with reaching that "pleasant level" is that it is going to vary greatly depending on where the second language speaker is from. As far as English is concerned, there are certainly some foreign accents that are thought of as more pleasant or sophisticated than others; this may simply be because of prejudice, but it's a reality nonetheless.
The other thing I'd add is that while one can be satisfied with an accent and feel it is better to devote time to vocabulary, etc, I still don't see why one wouldn't try through these studies to at least marginally improve an imitation of a native accent. Personally I find it rather odd that someone can live in the country of his/her target language for years and not see much of any accent improvement. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Russianbear Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 6774 days ago 358 posts - 422 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, Ukrainian Studies: Spanish | Message 29 of 43 05 May 2008 at 9:03am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Edited by Russianbear on 05 May 2008 at 9:03am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Topsiderunner Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6917 days ago 215 posts - 218 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Italian, Arabic (Written) | Message 30 of 43 05 May 2008 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Sure, I think Professor Arguelles summed it up best when he said:
I would say, and again I mean no offense, that strong East Asian accents probably wouldn't be rated as pleasant by your average American (at least of non-Asian descent). I think based on cultural stereotypes and greater language similarities, a French or German accent would be somewhat more accepted. Spanish might fall into this category as well, but again the strong Hispanic immigrant backlash might turn off some Americans to strong Spanish accents. Eastern European can be certainly be appealing and sophisticated sounding if not too strong (I think Russian tennis players have helped get the US over Cold War prejudices!). I'm writing this without any proof other than my own experiences and observing others. These views, positive or negative, are probably caused by a mix of both cultural views and the actual sound of a foreign accent for an ear accustomed to English. I would certainly be interested in knowing how speakers of other languages react to different foreign accents. The only example I can think of as an American is the stereotypical French reaction to an American accent trying to say a few words while on vacation.
I hadn't thought about that but I think it certainly could be a major factor for some people. I've found that it really helps to pretend that one is "acting" to a certain degree, because it allows for more liberties in pronunciation and speech rhythm than I would normally feel comfortable taking. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| portunhol Triglot Senior Member United States thelinguistblogger.w Joined 6251 days ago 198 posts - 299 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: German, Arabic (classical) | Message 31 of 43 05 May 2008 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I have really enjoyed this thread! Prof. Arguelles' insights are great! Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions. I have also enjoyed many of the comments made by others on this thread.
I would like to point out that the assessment of accents, even one made by a native speaker, is very subjective. I remember being in the company of a Bolivian friend while talking to a Chilean. The Chilean asked me why I spoke better Spanish than my friend. I had been living in Chile for about a year, working hard to blend in, and spoke with a much more Chilean accent than did my Bolivian friend who had only been in the country for a few months. Some people mistake their own regional dialect/accent as being the best or the only one. The opposite has happened a few times with me and Mexicans living in the USA. I remember asking one of them how my Spanish was and the person said that I was pretty good but could definitely improve a few things. When I asked what they were, the person proceeded to "correct" my Chilean choice of vocabulary (tercia v.s. tercio) and certain aspects of my speech that are common to just about every Chilean (leaving off final "s" of most words, etc.) Sometimes people will take one look at you and decide whether or not you will speak intelligibly before you open your mouth. I have a friend who is highly fluent in Japanese but happens to have lilly white skin and be 6'2 (about a meter 85). People will mistake him for being Japanese while speaking on the phone and then others will speak to him face to face later that day and will find his Japanese barely comprehensible. Edited by portunhol on 05 May 2008 at 5:22pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Budz Octoglot Senior Member Australia languagepump.com Joined 6372 days ago 118 posts - 171 votes Speaks: German*, English, Russian, Esperanto, Ukrainian, Mandarin, Cantonese, French Studies: Italian, Spanish, Korean, Portuguese, Bulgarian, Persian, Hungarian, Kazakh, Swahili, Vietnamese, Polish | Message 32 of 43 05 May 2008 at 6:37pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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One should presume that a really strong foreign accent when speaking English is always going to be a bit annoying - so we're talking now about accents that aren't over the top heavy.
Well, we're so used to foreign accents in English that we don't really pay much attention to them. Thai's - when they speak English as if it's a tonal language can sound not too good. Cantonese don't have the tone problem but it can be annoying when they try to speak without pronouncing any of the final consonants. But I think it's only a problem when they've been learning in their own country... once they live for a litle while in an English speaking country their accent becomes closer to the norm and will become just another accent. The more I think about it the more I believe that we are really impressed by someone that learnt English as an adult and just has a slight foreign accent left over. It just sounds cool, no matter where they are from. I second the question from the person that asked what is the perception of foreign accents in other languages. Are English speakers annoying when they speak Chinese? Are mistakes in tones in Chinese really annoying? If an English speaker basically gets the vowels right, but still has plosive p's and non-dental t-s in Russian - does that just sound a bit foreign and cool - or is it annoying? And no one's mentioned it yet, but Africans usually sound pretty pleasant when they speak English. Hmmm, I think there's definitely something here worth documenting. If you analyzed every foreign accent I'm sure there are certain sounds that are just annoying but could easily be fixed. I think (though I need confirmation) that for English speakers speaking most European languages - the annoying sound for the native listener is the tendency of some English speakers not to use pure vowel sounds but use the usual English diphthong instead. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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